mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Wow!
$75K for a 2 seat 40 year old Skipper! No way, don't care what kind of avionics it has.
Do you fly beyond your means?
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Wow!
$75K for a 2 seat 40 year old Skipper! No way, don't care what kind of avionics it has.
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
Wow!
$75K for a 2 seat 40 year old Skipper! No way, don't care what kind of avionics it has.
Why not just pull the avionics out, sell them separately and then sell the plane for less than half that. I agree..that's just crazy.
Don't know if someone else posted it, but you can also spend $200K for a 41 year old 172:
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1343271/1976-cessna-172m-skyhawk
The plane looks like it has a G500, Aspen, GTN750/GTN650 and prolly a wine cellar
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Why not just pull the avionics out, sell them separately and then sell the plane for less than half that. I agree..that's just crazy.
Don't know if someone else posted it, but you can also spend $200K for a 41 year old 172:
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1343271/1976-cessna-172m-skyhawk
The plane looks like it has a G500, Aspen, GTN750/GTN650 and prolly a wine cellar
Yeah I guess one could do that with the Skipper. I think there was a thread or something awhile back on that loaded C172 on POA.
George Mohr
Line Up and Wait
That Cessna is ROFL.
strangebird
Pre-takeoff checklist
I think if you have an airplane you have to learn how to fix it and find a friendly mechanic to save money and not just drop it off at some FBO and say fix it and pay the bill, who nitpicks everything to run the bill up, that is how I have managed to have my airplanes for so many years, and buy an airplane that meets your needs and is not going to break the bank.
James331
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James331
That.
The big box and "jet" FBOs are horrible, found myself in a position that I had to use one once (long story), they "fixed" a few things which did not need fixing, without asking me first, yet didn't do anything to the battery I mentioned ether needs a full deep charge of likley to be replaced, after paying thousands and thousands I still had to jump the plane on their ramp as the battery couldn't turn the prop over.
Besides playing the "what if game" is silly, I mean what if something major happened to your house and the insurance company ducked out (it's happened) are you owning a home beyond your means?
What if something happened to you medically, do you own a body beyond your means?
I mean I could go on, but just using some common sense and doing a little DIY and owner assist with a good old school AP will put you miles ahead.
paflyer
Final Approach
Looks like some pre-buy things were missed (how old were the mags?) First year or two is going to be catch-up maintenance. It'll get better. But general advice is buy at a price that leaves maybe 10% in the acquisition budget to fix things.
Putting in new, optional avionics is CAPEX, not OPEX, generally.
paflyer
Final Approach
I think that is very rare these days unless you live away for the population centers.
James331
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James331
?
It's how I've always done it, even when I lived near a big city.
Keep in mind airplane are built to travel, sometime taking a few days and a 1.5hr flight to a food wrench is worth it's weight in gold.
paflyer
Final Approach
You have to take the value of your own time into account. Haven't found any AP yet that gladly suffers having an amateur in the shop, generally slowing them down.
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James331
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I guess in major cities it wouldn't be uncommon to find someone who's never held a screw driver before, but for most folks they can remove inspection panels and such just as fast as any APIA
It also depends on how much business you have and how much you can afford to loose, for me not able to owner assist is a deal breaker.
Also most folks smart enough to get a PPL can grease a bearing or change a tire just as fast after they are shown once.
I don't know of many high time pilots who don't get invloved with their personal planes annuals.
paflyer
Final Approach
Re-read my first sentence: "You have to take the value of your own time into account."
Being "involved" doesn't necessarily mean personally turning screws.
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
James331
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You and I have a different meaning to the word involved I guess.
But I can promise you having my APIA do my annual himself, vs with me running around pulling panels off and the installing, dropping the cowl, pulling plugs whiles he's inspecting the wings, putting plates back on as he's compression testing, that saves time. Ofcourse YMMV
paflyer
Final Approach
You must have a lot of free time.
James331
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You must have a lot of free time.
Yeah, about 2-3 days a year for the annual, it's a major commitment lol
...for a plane I trust my life to, and a plane I fly into places where if you have a mechanical issue, well you can't exactly just call the local FBO lol
Also it's a fun time, shoot the **** as we're working on the plane, drinks after, it's a very worth while couple days, and my mechanic and I seem to both benifit and enjoy it. Crazy huh
Rcmutz
Cleared for Takeoff
A knowledgeable buyer will price this plane with a RUNOUT engine, knowing it will require shortly. But, as I believe CJ Barnum said, "there is a sucker born every day".
Owner-assisted maintenance (troubleshooting, sourcing parts, turning the wrench, etc.) is one of the primary ways I keep my costs of flying reasonable. If I were just tossing the keys to the shop and saying "Call me when it's done," I certainly wouldn't own a twin (and perhaps no plane at all).
Ventucky Red
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Jon
Why not just pull the avionics out, sell them separately and then sell the plane for less than half that. I agree..that's just crazy.
Don't know if someone else posted it, but you can also spend $200K for a 41 year old 172:
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1343271/1976-cessna-172m-skyhawk
The plane looks like it has a G500, Aspen, GTN750/GTN650 and prolly a wine cellar
If it was a Yingling 172, I wouldn't have a problem spending that kind of money if I was a flight school
http://www.yinglingaviation.com/aircrafts/ascend-172-by-yingling-aircraft/
Getting back to the Skipper.....
Pilot - Ground...... this is Beech N Blah Blah Blah we're ready for push back
Ground - Beech Blah - Blah - Blah say type again
Pilot - umm ahhh ummm ahhhh a BE77
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SoCal RV Flyer
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I got a lot of satisfaction in doing my annual too, about a month ago. Work a bit, go over and visit a friend building another RV, have a burger at the airport restaurant while the power screwdriver is recharging. Basically, just being an airport rat for three days. Nothing instills confidence more that personally checking the torque on empennage bolts, seeing the clean fuel filter with your own eyes, etc. Gave me a chance to thoroughly clean the plane and tidy up bits of wiring too.
midcap
Pattern Altitude
My goal is to finance the plane and then have 50k in cash for Mx and repairs. Pretty much half the cost of the plane I want to buy.
arkvet
Line Up and Wait
I can't believe I'm going to agree with James here but yeah, owner assisted maintenance is beneficial in so many ways. My IA is great and meticulous but actually prefers owner assisted maintenance. He says he doesn't get excited about removing inspection plates and greasing wheel bearings anymore. I figure 1-2 FULL hard working days for the annual and I'm the one that goes home looking like I worked in a coal mine. I LOVE IT! I learn a ton about my plane. My IA drinks tea and works on the log books while watching over my shoulder throughout the process. Sometime in the near future I'm going to replace my engine mounts. I'll do it in his shop on a day he's there. Unless I run into trouble I'll do all the work and he will get to do the inspection / paperwork.
Owner assisted maintenance is fun and saves a lot of money, and in many cases is probably done better and more thoroughly since you have a pretty big interest in the deal.
Avionics is that area where owner assisted doesn't help me much and the wallet can tell too!
Owner assisted maintenance is fun and saves a lot of money, and in many cases is probably done better and more thoroughly since you have a pretty big interest in the deal.
Avionics is that area where owner assisted doesn't help me much and the wallet can tell too!
Flyingfanatic
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Nice. I've seen your airplane and wondered if it was a twin bo. Is the one tied down across the ramp from you yours too?
No, the rotting one is not mine. But Please feel free to come say hi if you see me out there.
mtuomi
En-Route
Avionics is where you can save the most with owner assist. I was quoted $400 to $1000 (4 quotes, 400 cheapest 1000 most expensive) for a wiring harness from a GX55 to CDI. It took me 45 minutes and around $40 in parts (all MIL grade stuff from Spruce, no cheap crp).
After a couple of very bad A&Ps, I'd say the quality of your mechanic will define your ownership experience. Great mechanic can make it relatively painless and cost "effective", whereas a bad one will take you to cleaners in no time.
paflyer
Final Approach
And the shop was OK with installing an amateur-built harness?
Building a low-voltage, unshielded wiring harness isn't exactly rocket science. I built the harness for my GX50 in my living room in similar time, works like a charm. The A&P/IA who signed off on my install had no issues with it after inspecting it and testing it. A "pro" job might look a little prettier, but functionally they either work or they don't work. If you use the correct hookup wire, the correct sockets and the correct crimper, it's pretty hard to screw up.
I had a mechanic who said she didn't charge any extra for owner assist. Still it got you more in tune with your aircraft. She divided her customers into two categories: those who will turn a wrench on their planes and "just pilots." One day, Margy and I were helping with the annual and we broke for lunch and were eating pizza in the back. A pilot came in and said he thought his battery was failing. The mechanic was eating with us as well and told him to bring it in and she'd test it on the bench. A blank stare ensued. "Oh, you're just a pilot. Ron, help him take his battery out and bring it inside."
Flyingfanatic
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Will do. I was just there this morning with a student. Sad to see those planes rotting away.
I'm usually out there on the weekends or some nights after work. I've got a few small projects in the works on her, so I go down when I have time and chip away at them.
The rotting TBone really is sad. There's probably not even much in terms of salvageable parts left on it. The control surfaces all appear totally shot. As I understand it, there are title problems with that stem back to Barron Thomas.
Twin_Flyer
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Ted
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iFlyNothing
I think a large percentage of pilots are flying beyond their means, and are basically betting that they don't have too many bad things come up in too short of a period of time to make them have to bail out of the plane. No doubt my flying falls into that category, although the non-profit aspect makes the dynamics a bit different (and was really the whole motivation behind starting the non-profit). Since day 1 of this adventure I've been very clear that at some point I may get to a point where I have to shut down. I'm 8 years in and that day hasn't come yet, though. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I'm definitely spending more than I thought when I bought the plane, but not living beyond my means. I'm fortunate that I could handle an overhaul if my engine blew up next week, but my wife would be very unhappy. For me, there's nothing to rent around here (ok, there's one club around here that has 2 172's, but I didn't want to fly 172s the rest of my life). So I was getting my PPL as a dream I had, and then realized, what was I going to do after that with nothing to rent? I better buy a plane!