Do or die?

[bbchien]

Oh, Lord -- the Kobiyashi Maru scenario.

Another Trekkie....

Seriously, I had an mini Air Horn in my Mooney, powered by a 5" high 4" diameter canister. I kept it there when I was still doing Young Eagles. There was always an idiot parent in danger of running through our marshalls and into a prop. The horn was the signal to shut down all engines.

I'd be blowing that thing over and over.

But by then I'd have identified, verified, feathered, and started my climbout......

 

[PittsDriver]

I can tell you I'd do a lot of creative things before I'd plow directly into a wall that'll kill me.

Of course you would, as would any functioning pilot. But those creative things we'd be doing could have been guided by some bias on this particular topic that is carefully thought through here on the ground and maybe here in this forum. I have to believe this is part of the rationale behind the dreaded engine failure at night episode that has been discussed in another thread. While you're aiming for a dark patch, you're probably not aimed at folk on the ground unsuspecting of having aircraft wreckage join them in bed or in their car on the way home from a late night at work.

Just turn it around and imagine your wife and kids in that park field. Maybe your 3 year old is there celebrating her birthday with all her Pre K 3 friends and their parents. Some dope that forgot his airplane needed gas to get all the way back to the airport comes careening through and ploughs into our park and miraculously misses everyone. Nobody killed, nobody hurt. If it's me, I'm still snot slinging PO'd that this idiot endangered my family and friends and I'd have to guess you would be too. If you got to pick this pilots actions from the ground there with your kids, would you put them into the hillside for 0% of harming your family or would you put them in the park for some probably bad outcome?

I'll ask it again: Would you put others at risk to lower your chance of injury or death? I think that's a perfectly reasonable question for everyone to get a peace with their answer.

 

[jesse]

I'll ask it again: Would you put others at risk to lower your chance of injury or death? I think that's a perfectly reasonable question for everyone to get a peace with their answer.

Honestly--if all I could find was a park full of kids I probably didn't have much time. By the time I saw them I'm probably already committed to landing at that spot. No-I don't think running my airplane nose down into the ground to avoid that spot would cross my mind. I'm not wired like that, call me selfish I guess.

Basically, by the time I knew what was happening I would continue to try to land. I wouldn't have the time to measure their risk and my risk and my options and the potential option of me rolling the plane over and pulling into the ground.

I think this question has more meaning to the airshow folks and I think most of them already know what they'll do.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Locally, I think about two years ago, a pilot lost the engine of a C150 over the city (as near as I can determine from the description it was somewhere near I-75 and M-39) - according to the pilot, he saw a school yard (I think it was Lincoln Park High School) but was worried about kids (it was about 4:00 pm or so on a weekday) so he passed that up and headed south (along I-75) where he saw some other fields and thought he might make it. They turned out to be too far and he ended up merging with the rush hour traffic on southbound I-75. No damage.

(On my way home from work, I saw the traffic was stopped on I-75 as I came down M-39 so I didn't get on (my usual route) and went another way so I missed seeing it. If I had known...)

 

[John Baker]

. No-I don't think running my airplane nose down into the ground to avoid that spot would cross my mind. I'm not wired like that, call me selfish I guess.

I think this question has more meaning to the airshow folks and I think most of them already know what they'll do.

I think this is an age of the respondent response, but I am guessing. It has a lot to do with the era a person was raised in. A few years back one of my friends and I were bitching about our kids, then it occurred to us, we raised them.

My generation was raised by the WWII generation. They had little sympathy for us kids. I think they felt we were a spoiled, pampered lot as compared to all the kids they saw surviving in the war zones. I think we would be verbally corrected about once before the roof caved in.

The generation my generation raised were not brought up as disciplined. I guess we did not want our kids to have to go through that. Now those same kids are running business's and government. This is called paying for your mistakes.

John

 

[PittsDriver]

No-I don't think running my airplane nose down into the ground to avoid that spot would cross my mind. I'm not wired like that, call me selfish I guess.

OK, fair enough. I personally think it's unconscionable but I'm guessing you're not alone. Here's why I feel that way. When I'm out flying, I'm not defending our nation from bad guys or out flying SAR or medevac missions. There's no life or death stake in my flying. I'm flying for fun, convenience, or business. Mostly just for fun. So in other words, in a question of life or death, my flying is a trivial factor. So now something I've decided just to go out and get my jollies on about has put me in a situation where I have to decide to risk it all to prevent some obliviously innocent bystanders from being hurt by my actions. It stinks and no one ever wants to be there. But, do I it take responsibility for the risk I was willing to assume to be there and do everything in my power to harm no one else even at great personal cost to me?

It's not up to me or anyone else to judge your answer or choice here. But do yourself and the rest of the flying community a service and go think about it. If for no other reason than enlightened self interest. It could be that you'll just never really know how you'd respond until you're faced with it. I've been there once where the choice was putting the airplane down in an upscale residential neighborhood with wide streets and no power lines or in the river. We went in the river.

 

[jesse]

The generation my generation raised were not brought up as disciplined. I guess we did not want our kids to have to go through that. Now those same kids are running business's and government. This is called paying for your mistakes.

John

..and the generation before you thought the same thing. I guess I'm not sure what this rant has to do with my post. My generation isn't exactly running the economy right now and the economy isn't doing so hot. Maybe I should blame my parents? No, I'm not going to do that--because I think the 'generation' has little to do with it and generally consider that a cop-out. I can also tell you that the response has nothing to do with the generation. There were many people a generation above me writing the same thing.

We're trying to decide on our lives using a couple sentences and not much of a picture. I'm saying that there would be a better option in the real world short of running into a mountain.

Put me in an airplane, pull the power, and I'll show you where I"ll go. Trying to do this in text has little value in my opinion because I can't look around and pick out the details of the terrain. There is always another way to accomplish something...

 

[jesse]

OK, fair enough. I personally think it's unconscionable but I'm guessing you're not alone. Here's why I feel that way. When I'm out flying, I'm not defending our nation from bad guys or out flying SAR or medevac missions. There's no life or death stake in my flying. I'm flying for fun, convenience, or business. Mostly just for fun. So in other words, in a question of life or death, my flying is a trivial factor. So now something I've decided just to go out and get my jollies on about has put me in a situation where I have to decide to risk it all to prevent some obliviously innocent bystanders from being hurt by my actions. It stinks and no one ever wants to be there. But, do I it take responsibility for the risk I was willing to assume to be there and do everything in my power to harm no one else even at great personal cost to me?

You really aren't understanding what I'm writing. I'm not suggesting you run an airplane through a hundred kids playing baseball. I'm stating that it is impossible for me to come to a conclusion without any detail and I can tell you that running my airplane into a mountain is going to be the very last thing on my list.

I'm sorry--but I don't fly airshows with dense populations of people standing around as I push my airplane to my limits. If I were doing this I would ask myself this question and I would mentally train myself to take the ground before the people.

I don't do the above--therefore I'm not going to mentally train myself beforehand to run into a mountain. I would much rather my brain running through survivable alternatives in the real airplane. The likelihood of this occurring and you deciding between people or a mountain is basically nothing. There is no way to come to a conclusion based on a generic situation with almost no detail.

 

[John Baker]

Jesse, I think you are missing the spirit of the question. The question is simple, would you risk the lives of others in order to save your own, or would you opt to sacrifice yourself to avoid putting others in harms way?

The question tries to eliminate all the options available until it is down to just the two options. There are no others. If you can avoid answering by adding options, why not go with the engine restarts, and you just continue on to your destination? That, of course, eliminates the question and then you would be correct, it is a stupid thread.

All I am trying to do is get a handle on how other pilots feel about this.

John

 

[RMCN172RG]

Jesse, I think you are missing the spirit of the question. The question is simple, would you risk the lives of others in order to save your own, or would you opt to sacrifice yourself to avoid putting others in harms way?

All I am trying to do is get a handle on how other pilots feel about this.

John

SO the only correct answer is

You will make an instantaneous decision on your intended landing location then fly the airplane as far into the crash as possible.

Whatever you do is right, since a go around is not an option.

 

[AWACSEng]

I would choose the field every time. There have been some compelling arguments on why not to use the field, but I still insist, the field it is. My view ob life is this: everyday one gets out of bed, one accepts the risk that is life, and potentialy death. It is just as easy to be hit by a car, struck by lightning, falling in the bathtub, etc. Nothing is guarenteed except death. I do not set out every day thibking this is my day to die, but I have excepted that it can happen anytime. With that said, I will not help the end come sooner to myself. I guess what I'm getting at is those people in the park accept the risks of life by simply being alive. Everything happens for a reason. If it's thier time, just like the rest of us, it's thier time.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Jesse, I think you are missing the spirit of the question. The question is simple, would you risk the lives of others in order to save your own, or would you opt to sacrifice yourself to avoid putting others in harms way?

And, until you find yourself in that situation, you won't really know...

 

[poadeleted20]

And, until you find yourself in that situation, you won't really know...

Exactly.

 

[PittsDriver]

I guess what I'm getting at is those people in the park accept the risks of life by simply being alive.

So you're saying that when you return from the bathroom, you find that your whole family is killed by this hypothetical pilot in an attempt to improve his odds of survival - that you're OK with his decision and c'est la vie. Because hey, they accepted that risk when they got out of bed this morning? Don't misunderstand me - I'm not asking if you're OK that your family got wiped out. I'm asking if you're OK with his decision because you'd have done the same thing.

 

[Danos]

No brainier. I'd **** my pants . After that it's anyone's guess.

 

[poadeleted20]

When they ask some soldier who just did something wildly heroic, and totally unlikely to survive what he did, why he chose to do it, the answer is never, "Well, I'd thought about this sort of thing a lot, and had decided that if it ever happened, I'd sacrifice myself for the others." It's usually more like, "I dunno -- I was so scared I can't remember what I was thinking -- it just kinda happened."

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I submit that anyone who has actually, truly stared death in the face and lived to tell the tale is going to opt for the field. I have a friend who survived a horrible motorcycle accident who who once told me "Y'know, before this, I used to think I would step out in traffic to save a child, but not any more. I want to live".

Me too.

I will do whatever I can to mitigate, but choose certain death over the chance, or even likelihood- but not certainty- of killing another? No way. If I can't live with the guilt, I can always kill myself later.

 

[Henning]

Rock. No way will I have the blood of innocents on my soul. Rather be dead.

There are no innocents in life, and everyone dies.

"No one has earned his place in the world until he has cleared his place" Kubalai Khan to Marco Polo.

Next question, do you have a greater responsibility to those on the ground, or the passengers in your plane?

Me, I'm going for the park, If I'm gonna die, I'm taking as many as I can with me.

 

[Henning]

So you're saying that when you return from the bathroom, you find that your whole family is killed by this hypothetical pilot in an attempt to improve his odds of survival - that you're OK with his decision and c'est la vie. Because hey, they accepted that risk when they got out of bed this morning? Don't misunderstand me - I'm not asking if you're OK that your family got wiped out. I'm asking if you're OK with his decision because you'd have done the same thing.

We are all here but for a fleeting time, and we all will die, the time, cause and nature for most of us is a mystery until the very end, but for us all, it will end. Question to ask yourself is "Do I like myself?" BTW, lets say your family is in the plane with you, does that change the equation any? Are you going to be that quick to sacrifice your child's life when there is a chance no one will die?

 

[Henning]

Another Trekkie....

Seriously, I had an mini Air Horn in my Mooney, powered by a 5" high 4" diameter canister. I kept it there when I was still doing Young Eagles. There was always an idiot parent in danger of running through our marshalls and into a prop. The horn was the signal to shut down all engines.

I'd be blowing that thing over and over.

But by then I'd have identified, verified, feathered, and started my climbout......

I hauled banners with an old Stinson, the guy had mounted a big siren on it in case of going in on the beach.

 

[John Baker]

And, until you find yourself in that situation, you won't really know...

I explained that in one of my earlier posts on this thread. Absolutely no one knows for sure how they will react in a moment of crises until they are actually experiencing it. We would all like to think that we will remain cool and calm and no matter what happens, our decision will be the right one.

I believe knowing what you should do when the chips are down, goes a long way in helping you make those split second decisions.

Flying is much like martial arts, every move that you have practiced, learned, and thought through thoroughly, becomes one more part of your arsenal of survival. (Or quite possibly the survival of Innocent others.)

John

 

[John Baker]

Probably I should add this on, I don't think any of us are actually afraid of death, it's a simple concept, either your alive or your not.

I think what scares me and probably most of us, is being partially alive, like what if you somehow survived your dance with the mountain side? What if you went on to live a long life as a paraplegic, who suffers chronic pain and you are completely dependent on others for even the simplest of things?

It's not crashing into the mountain, it's the thought of surviving it, that is the frightening part.

John

 

[AWACSEng]

So you're saying that when you return from the bathroom, you find that your whole family is killed by this hypothetical pilot in an attempt to improve his odds of survival - that you're OK with his decision and c'est la vie. Because hey, they accepted that risk when they got out of bed this morning? Don't misunderstand me - I'm not asking if you're OK that your family got wiped out. I'm asking if you're OK with his decision because you'd have done the same thing.

For the most part, yes. Don't get me wrong. If it were my family, I would be devastated. But I personally would understand that if was going to happen, it was going to happen. This is leading more to a philisophical and beliefs topic than a what would you do topic, but the theory I have presented is how I think I would choose. I totally agree with the others who have said you do not know how you will react untill you are in the position, but since we are hangar flying this scenario, the field it is.

 

[Aztec Driver]

This is all wonderful for discussion, but it is not a real life scenario.

When the engine fails, and you are scrambling over where to land, how to get there, what not to hit, by the time you find out what is in that park that you were aiming for, it is too late to change. You haven't got the altitude or energy to change tacks.

If you find yourself in this situation, why not run the starter on the engine to make some noise? It will give the people on the ground a little advanced warning of something coming.

When you have precious little time to consider where to put the aircraft, the big things are what you avoid, and by the time you are close enough to see and recognize everything else, you are sliding across the ground in a ride that hasn't got much of your contol left.

When my instructor and I totalled my Aztec, there wasn't much choice. We dropped into the edge of the corn field, slid across the front lawn of a development house and into the street in the development. We hit one tree with the wing, and scraped up the lawn. We missed all of the parked vehicles and missed the group of children who, five minutes earlier, were playing in that front yard. Even if we had seen the kids in the front yard, we would not have been able to avoid them. I praise God every day for the outcome on that day. Maybe a single with gear still under it would afford more control after touchdown, but not much.

The point I am trying to make is, if you have enough time to distinguish what is at your intended landing spot, then you should be able to circle or in some way warn those people out of the way to clear a reasonable safe landing spot. If you don't have that time, you can't change landing spots.

 

[kevin47881]

I would choose the field every time. There have been some compelling arguments on why not to use the field, but I still insist, the field it is. My view ob life is this: everyday one gets out of bed, one accepts the risk that is life, and potentialy death. It is just as easy to be hit by a car, struck by lightning, falling in the bathtub, etc. Nothing is guarenteed except death. I do not set out every day thibking this is my day to die, but I have excepted that it can happen anytime. With that said, I will not help the end come sooner to myself. I guess what I'm getting at is those people in the park accept the risks of life by simply being alive. Everything happens for a reason. If it's thier time, just like the rest of us, it's thier time.

You stated, much more succinctly than I could, what I am thinking.

 

[jesse]

This is all wonderful for discussion, but it is not a real life scenario.

When the engine fails, and you are scrambling over where to land, how to get there, what not to hit, by the time you find out what is in that park that you were aiming for, it is too late to change. You haven't got the altitude or energy to change tacks.

If you find yourself in this situation, why not run the starter on the engine to make some noise? It will give the people on the ground a little advanced warning of something coming.

When you have precious little time to consider where to put the aircraft, the big things are what you avoid, and by the time you are close enough to see and recognize everything else, you are sliding across the ground in a ride that hasn't got much of your contol left.

When my instructor and I totalled my Aztec, there wasn't much choice. We dropped into the edge of the corn field, slid across the front lawn of a development house and into the street in the development. We hit one tree with the wing, and scraped up the lawn. We missed all of the parked vehicles and missed the group of children who, five minutes earlier, were playing in that front yard. Even if we had seen the kids in the front yard, we would not have been able to avoid them. I praise God every day for the outcome on that day. Maybe a single with gear still under it would afford more control after touchdown, but not much.

The point I am trying to make is, if you have enough time to distinguish what is at your intended landing spot, then you should be able to circle or in some way warn those people out of the way to clear a reasonable safe landing spot. If you don't have that time, you can't change landing spots.

Well said. That is exactly what I was trying to say.

 

[PittsDriver]

This is leading more to a philisophical and beliefs topic than a what would you do topic, ...

People's actions are driven by their principles and convictions. People rarely act contrary to their core beliefs. It's no surprise to me that some people think they're the star of their lives and that the universe revolves around them. I'll guess there aren't many people in this category out defending your way of life, protecting your family in your own neighborhood, or ready to run into your burning home to save your life after you dropped a cigarette in bed. Thankfully, there are some people who see themselves as a supporting actor in a larger story than their own self interests willing to die for what are universally true principles.

Of course this thread is philosophical. What makes humans different than a pack of hyenas is that philosophy can guide our actions. Because of where you lie in nature, you have the opportunity to decide your response between instinct and action. Use it.

 

[Danos]

If I'm gonna die, I'm taking as many as I can with me.

Why so?

 

[poadeleted20]

Another Trekkie....

That's "Trekker."

 

[Henning]

Why so?

World is drastically overpopulated, it'll be my last gift to humanity....

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I'll guess there aren't many people in this category out defending your way of life, protecting your family in your own neighborhood, or ready to run into your burning home to save your life after you dropped a cigarette in bed. Thankfully, there are some people who see themselves as a supporting actor in a larger story than their own self interests willing to die for what are universally true principles.

For a long time I was in volunteer firefighting. There are heroes, and there are fools. Sometimes the line between the two is very thin. It's the "wannabe" hero that'll get you killed.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Id definitely choose the park if I have passengers, however If I do not I would think about other options and then ultimately choose the park. My CFI teaches me to find the best landing place, regardless of who or what is in it.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

World is drastically overpopulated, it'll be my last gift to humanity....

VERY WELL SAID... Living in Jersey I strongly agree with that and chances are if you do hit someone, there is a very high chance that they are an ass, or deserved it in some way. Yes very cynical but thats how I see it. No I'm not homicidal.

 

[gismo]

I've waited a while before wading in on this but here's what I think.

1) The scenario presented by John in his first post is too vague WRT the question I think he was really trying to ask.

2) That question in simplest terms is "If you had to make a choice between a very high probability of killing only yourself vs a very high probability of killing an innocent person, which would you choose (and why)?

3) As others have pointed out few people who haven't already made such a choice (and lived) can answer such a question with any certainty. I think it's at least as likely that someone who believes they'd make one choice when answering a hypothetical would actually make the other choice if faced with such a situation in real life. Not necessarily because their hypothetical answer is a lie, more because our choices made under severe stress are often very different than ones made in a comfortable setting.

4) As demonstrated by the responses to the question, most people with a "pilot's mentality" will choose to believe they'd find a way to avoid the choice.

5) My honest answer to the question (refined by me in #2 above) is "I dunno".

 

[PittsDriver]

It's an interesting twist on the question when you have passengers in the plane with you. Questions that come to mind are:
- Are the lives of my passengers more valuable than those on the ground?
- What action puts the greater number of souls at risk?
- Would I knowingly put some stranger at risk to lower the risk to my own passengers? How about lowering the risk to my own family - does that make a difference?
- Did my passengers in the plane with me "buy in" to the risk of going flying like I've been postulating makes all the difference in this decision when it was just me alone?
- What if the passengers were my own immediate family?
- What if the passengers included someone like Ghandi?

Maybe a better way to propose this scenario would be that you've got nothing better to do today than have some fun doing lazy eights over a park full of families having picnics with their kids and friends. Suddenly, you're engulfed in a cockpit fire and if you don't exit the plane in the next 60 seconds, you're dead. Do you go ploughing through the unsuspecting picnic'ers, hop out of the burning wreckage and hope that the paramedics tend to you before all the other trauma victims you just caused? Or, do you do everything you can to make sure the wreckage comes down where it won't hurt anyone knowing that this action will likely end your life?

My whole position on this is based in the thought that the legacy left by my passion for flying and all that it means to me can't be a bunch of ruined families and lives. If you had a crystal ball and knew ahead of time that was going to be the case you'd never learn to fly in the first place, right? So how's it any different when the situation is suddenly thrust upon you?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Maybe a better way to propose this scenario would be that you've got nothing better to do today than have some fun doing lazy eights over a park full of families having picnics with their kids and friends. Suddenly, you're engulfed in a cockpit fire and if you don't exit the plane in the next 60 seconds, you're dead. Do you go ploughing through the unsuspecting picnic'ers, hop out of the burning wreckage and hope that the paramedics tend to you before all the other trauma victims you just caused? Or, do you do everything you can to make sure the wreckage comes down where it won't hurt anyone knowing that this action will likely end your life?

Hey! The park was nearly empty. And there was no need to get out. OK?

FWIW, I would hope that I would do everything possible to protect the bystanders...

 

[gismo]

Hey! The park was nearly empty. And there was no need to get out. OK?

FWIW, I would hope that I would do everything possible to protect the bystanders...

That picture looks familiar although I don't remember the NACA scoops on top of the fuselage.

-lance

 

[John Baker]

On one of the other forums (Hanger Talk) there is a thread about some fellow who probably should not have been flying that day. Apparently he was slightly inebriated and seems to have made more than a few bad calls.

Anyway the local County Atty. made this statement to the newspaper:

"Obviously, it's much more serious to fly while you're impaired," DuPage County State's Atty. Joe Birkett said. "But it's very rare. Pilots take public safety very seriously."

I believe the last sentence is very related to this thread.

John

 

[Ted]

No brainier. I'd **** my pants . After that it's anyone's guess.

And Danos wins with the most correct answer of the group!

 

[Bob Noel]

the trekkie would know it's Kobayashi Maru...

oops