Do I report this ?

[Unregistered]

Flying out of Class D airport, I received a clearance from the tower to take off, proceeded onto the runway and took off... about 15 seconds later I hear an aircraft on short final of perpendicular runway asking the tower if they are still clear to land despite me rolling on the perpendicular runway, at which point the tower responds with "Negative, go around". About 10 seconds later when I am about 50 ft above the runway I finally see another aircraft climbing about 100 ft in front of me and at the same altitude, at which point I ended up diving back to the runway to avoid a collision. I ended up flying below them with less than 100 ft of vertical separation. I was not able to see the aircraft earlier because of the trees on the side of the runway, and they must have been cleared to land before I switched to the frequency, so I was totally unaware of the second aircraft landing until the last second.

It is obvious to me that the controller made a mistake and the question is - what do i do about it? do i report it? if so, how do i do it? do i need to fill out an ASRS form?

thanks in advance!

 

[MAKG1]

ASRS is a safety reporting system. Do you have a safety issue to report or not?

 

[Brad Z]

ASRS is a safety reporting system. Do you have a safety issue to report or not?

I'd say if both planes were on a collision course there's a potential safety issue. I wonder if there was a timing issue. Did you depart immediately when given your takeoff clearance?

You might also consider talking to the tower supervisor right after the incident.

 

[frfly172]

File the report,also talk to the tower,get their input,on how they view the incident.

 

[Unregistered]

Yes, departed immediately, nothing unusual on my part.

MAKG, luckily this isn't a safety issue anymore, but it sure was!

I'd like to do anything in my power to make sure it doesnt happen again... am i asking for too much ? ;-(

 

[gprellwitz]

First, no need to be unreg on this. You did nothing wrong.

Second, yes, file a NASA report. They're to help improve the safety of the system.

 

[BillTIZ]

Flying out of Class D airport, I received a clearance from the tower to take off, proceeded onto the runway and took off... about 15 seconds later I hear an aircraft on short final of perpendicular runway asking the tower if they are still clear to land despite me rolling on the perpendicular runway, at which point the tower responds with "Negative, go around". About 10 seconds later when I am about 50 ft above the runway I finally see another aircraft climbing about 100 ft in front of me and at the same altitude, at which point I ended up diving back to the runway to avoid a collision. I ended up flying below them with less than 100 ft of vertical separation. I was not able to see the aircraft earlier because of the trees on the side of the runway, and they must have been cleared to land before I switched to the frequency, so I was totally unaware of the second aircraft landing until the last second.

It is obvious to me that the controller made a mistake and the question is - what do i do about it? do i report it? if so, how do i do it? do i need to fill out an ASRS form?

thanks in advance!

Once the tower told the other guy to go around, he should have told you of the aircraft and requested a low climb out.

There was an accident at VGT years ago. A landing aircraft and a departing aircraft met at the intersection on the ground. Departing Rwy 7 delayed his takeoff as he was new to the aircraft and getting everything right, met the aircraft landing on Rwy 12R at the intersection. Yes there was fire and fatalities.

File the report, tower got a Deal and should have pulled the tapes and pulled the controller off the position for a report.

 

[TommyG]

This is the real reason for the ASRS!!

 

[Everskyward]

Yes, departed immediately, nothing unusual on my part.

MAKG, luckily this isn't a safety issue anymore, but it sure was!

I'd like to do anything in my power to make sure it doesnt happen again... am i asking for too much ? ;-(

Did you or the other airplane say something at the time?

 

[Unregistered]

Did you or the other airplane say something at the time?

Nope. Come to think about it - could have, should have but didn't.

 

[danhagan]

Did you or the other airplane say something at the time?

Nope. Come to think about it - could have, should have but didn't.

I hope the controller knows how close it was. I've transmitted a simple "Well HELLO there" ... not trying to get a controller in trouble, but after that exchange they'll know what happened.

I made a phone call to tower once at a Class D that the controller messed up major, put me into head on traffic, sent me into multiple 360's and chastised the entire time I was doing it saying it was my fault all the while stepping on transmissions left and right. I landed, called tower, got a supervisor, told him to pull tapes and I'd be right up ... he indicated he was familiar and that the tape pull was not necessary - that it was a training situation and that the controller was relieved.

 

[bflynn]

Yes, departed immediately, nothing unusual on my part.

MAKG, luckily this isn't a safety issue anymore, but it sure was!

I'd like to do anything in my power to make sure it doesnt happen again... am i asking for too much ? ;-(

No, it's still a safety issue because the conditions which caused this to happen haven't been highlighted and stopped. The safety issue exists to the next airplanes in similar conditions.

 

[James331]

First, no need to be unreg on this. You did nothing wrong.

Second, yes, file a NASA report. They're to help improve the safety of the system.

Yup.

Also might want to search on liveatc for your clearance, just in case.

 

[Velocity173]

Well technically there's no prescribed separation between aircraft in the air in a class D but it's obvious the controller didn't apply intersecting runway procedures. You can file an ASRS if you want but most likely the situation was already noted by the tower sup.

 

[iflyvfr]

Do all towers have more than 1 person working in the tower so there is always a "sup" to pull the tapes? Curious.

 

[Brad Z]

Do all towers have more than 1 person working in the tower so there is always a "sup" to pull the tapes? Curious.

All towers have someone in charge. Whether or that position is filled 24/7 is a different story. They can always "pull the tapes" on Monday.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Maybe you should have given the tower your phone number and told him to call you.

 

[yah00]

Maybe you should have given the tower your phone number and told him to call you.

Oh that would be fun.... "Let me know when you are ready to copy, I've got a number for you to call when you finish your shift.." Lol

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[asgcpa]

I hope the controller knows how close it was. I've transmitted a simple "Well HELLO there" ... not trying to get a controller in trouble, but after that exchange they'll know what happened.

I made a phone call to tower once at a Class D that the controller messed up major, put me into head on traffic, sent me into multiple 360's and chastised the entire time I was doing it saying it was my fault all the while stepping on transmissions left and right. I landed, called tower, got a supervisor, told him to pull tapes and I'd be right up ... he indicated he was familiar and that the tape pull was not necessary - that it was a training situation and that the controller was relieved.

To the OP: Was this a training airport? KPWK where I fly out of is extremely close to ORD Bravo. There have been numerous times where a trainee has told me to extend downwind (R34) where I could be in Bravo had I continued. I have told them on those occasions I was extremely close to Brave, and unless they had immediate objections would do a 360 to right (R34 is LH pattern). A supervisor would come on and thank me. If there is no supervisor, I believe a call to the tower is warranted. Can some of the ATC guys/gals on here please advise?

 

[Velocity173]

To the OP: Was this a training airport? KPWK where I fly out of is extremely close to ORD Bravo. There have been numerous times where a trainee has told me to extend downwind (R34) where I could be in Bravo had I continued. I have told them on those occasions I was extremely close to Brave, and unless they had immediate objections would do a 360 to right (R34 is LH pattern). A supervisor would come on and thank me. If there is no supervisor, I believe a call to the tower is warranted. Can some of the ATC guys/gals on here please advise?

All ATC facilities conduct training. Some of your slow contract towers might not have students on in months though because they aren't getting new controllers often.

If the OP wants to call the facility or file an ASRS, then by all means do it. In the OP's example, based on the limited information given, I'd say the controller did not have required intersecting runway separation. If that's the case, they're required to report it to his supervisor who will log it as an operational error. QA / management will review the error and decide on a course of action. The controller in question will fill out an ATSAP form to basically own up to the error and be absolved from any punitive action...like an ASRS.

 

[ATC_av8er]

To the OP: Was this a training airport? KPWK where I fly out of is extremely close to ORD Bravo. There have been numerous times where a trainee has told me to extend downwind (R34) where I could be in Bravo had I continued. I have told them on those occasions I was extremely close to Brave, and unless they had immediate objections would do a 360 to right (R34 is LH pattern). A supervisor would come on and thank me. If there is no supervisor, I believe a call to the tower is warranted. Can some of the ATC guys/gals on here please advise?

Very few Class D airports abut against a Class B shelf that begins at the surface. There are a few, but generally speaking. If a tower controller has a need to potentially send a VFR into the Bravo for spacing, he must coordinate with the appropriate Approach controller. In most cases, it will be approved. At that point, the tower should inform you that Approach cleared you into the Bravo, and therefore, no need to worry.

You were absolutely correct though in recognizing the situation and providing an alternative to busting the Bravo. Oftentimes, we are busy and can't focus on each individual target at a time and can miss something like that. In a situation like that, the controller should be filing a report, probably under "Public Inquiry". The supervisor will see this report whenever he or she is in next and investigate by listening to the tapes (required to be retained for 45 days). To stay ahead of the curve, I would absolutely recommend calling the tower and leaving a number if the supe isn't on duty. We have the ability to include your phone number in our report later on, which makes getting a hold of you easier on the supervisor. You could leave it with the controller but we tend to forget to pass it along.

In summation, it sounds as if you did everything in a very professional and informed manner.

 

[RV10flyer]

Very few Class D airports abut against a Class B shelf that begins at the surface. There are a few, but generally speaking. If a tower controller has a need to potentially send a VFR into the Bravo for spacing, he must coordinate with the appropriate Approach controller. In most cases, it will be approved. At that point, the tower should inform you that Approach cleared you into the Bravo, and therefore, no need to worry.

Our first trip at night to LOU in our RV-10 was interesting. We entered right dw for rwy 6 and had to extend for traffic. ATC was very busy with several aircraft including a Taylorcraft and an Eclipse jet. We were cleared into Bravo previously and were getting close to SDF's perimeter fence before they called my base. It seems that you guys have a stressful job, but 99% of you are very good at what you do. Thanks.

 

[arnoha]

Very few Class D airports abut against a Class B shelf that begins at the surface. There are a few, but generally speaking. If a tower controller has a need to potentially send a VFR into the Bravo for spacing, he must coordinate with the appropriate Approach controller. In most cases, it will be approved. At that point, the tower should inform you that Approach cleared you into the Bravo, and therefore, no need to worry.

You were absolutely correct though in recognizing the situation and providing an alternative to busting the Bravo. Oftentimes, we are busy and can't focus on each individual target at a time and can miss something like that. In a situation like that, the controller should be filing a report, probably under "Public Inquiry". The supervisor will see this report whenever he or she is in next and investigate by listening to the tapes (required to be retained for 45 days). To stay ahead of the curve, I would absolutely recommend calling the tower and leaving a number if the supe isn't on duty. We have the ability to include your phone number in our report later on, which makes getting a hold of you easier on the supervisor. You could leave it with the controller but we tend to forget to pass it along.

In summation, it sounds as if you did everything in a very professional and informed manner.

I was curious about the abuts thing, since I knew my local Bravo airport, KSFO, has an abutting Delta in KSQL. It's not as uncommon as you think.

KSFO: KSQL
KLAX: KSMO, KHHR, KLAX
KSAN: KMYF, KNZY
KNKX: KMYF, KSEE
KDEN: KBKF, KFTG
KMCO: KORL
KMIA: KOPF
KTPA: KMCF, KPIE
KATL: KFTY
PHNL: PHJR
KORD: KPWK
KDCA: KDAA
KBOS: KOWD
KDTW: KYIP
KMSP: KSTP
KLAS: KVGT, KHND
KMEM: KOLV
KDFW: KADS
KDAL: KADS, KRBD
KHOU: KEFD
KSEA: KBFI, KRNT, KSEA

So, a little more than half (21 vs. 17) actually do have abutting Delta. I guess towers beget more towers!

 

[Kelvin]

I was curious about the abuts thing, since I knew my local Bravo airport, KSFO, has an abutting Delta in KSQL. It's not as uncommon as you think.

KSFO: KSQL
KLAX: KSMO, KHHR, KLAX
KSAN: KMYF, KNZY
KNKX: KMYF, KSEE
KDEN: KBKF, KFTG
KMCO: KORL
KMIA: KOPF
KTPA: KMCF, KPIE
KATL: KFTY
PHNL: PHJR
KORD: KPWK
KDCA: KDAA
KBOS: KOWD
KDTW: KYIP
KMSP: KSTP
KLAS: KVGT, KHND
KMEM: KOLV
KDFW: KADS
KDAL: KADS, KRBD
KHOU: KEFD
KSEA: KBFI, KRNT, KSEA

So, a little more than half (21 vs. 17) actually do have abutting Delta. I guess towers beget more towers!

CLT: JQF (400' gap from ceiling of D at JQF to floor of B at CLT)

 

[arnoha]

CLT: JQF (400' gap from ceiling of D at JQF to floor of B at CLT)

Yeah, quite a few of those, too. I was looking for abutments to the surface control areas; in other words, I was looking for the places you'd go Delta tower to Bravo tower without talking to Approach at all.

Want to talk to a lot of towers in a row? Try a low-level Bay Tour starting at KRHV. KRHV -> KSJC -> KNUQ -> KPAO -> KSQL -> KSFO with a Bravo clearance from San Francisco tower, before you finally talk to NorCal.

 

[tinygiant]

There was an accident at VGT years ago. A landing aircraft and a departing aircraft met at the intersection on the ground. Departing Rwy 7 delayed his takeoff as he was new to the aircraft and getting everything right, met the aircraft landing on Rwy 12R at the intersection. Yes there was fire and fatalities.

Bill, can you point in the right direction for the accident report? I was unable to find the report on the NTSB website after a cursory search. I'm interested in finding out some of the details of this accident as VGT is my home drome and this particular type of safety issue interests me.

 

[murphey]

KDEN and KBKF isn't an issue, Buckley is USAF and a one-way runway...Take off on 14, land on 34. The fun with FTG is that 2 sides abut KDEN, and there's a tiny piece ipon the 3rd side that also causes problems. Always a bigger problem when KDEN sends the heavies south in the summer. DA is a b**ch for the heavies.

 

[Henning]

Once the tower told the other guy to go around, he should have told you of the aircraft and requested a low climb out.

There was an accident at VGT years ago. A landing aircraft and a departing aircraft met at the intersection on the ground. Departing Rwy 7 delayed his takeoff as he was new to the aircraft and getting everything right, met the aircraft landing on Rwy 12R at the intersection. Yes there was fire and fatalities.

File the report, tower got a Deal and should have pulled the tapes and pulled the controller off the position for a report.

Or aborted the take off, was there a third plane involved, or did you take your eyes off the traffic and lose them? I'm not quite clear. If you took your eyes off of them, that is the lesson you should take away from this, never take your eyes off conflicting traffic until clear.

The reason I am confused about a third plane is that in order to have that kind of a conflict with crossing runway traffic that you were aware of means you not only took your eyes off of them, you climbed before crossing their path line. Did you start climbing before you got to the intersecting runway, or did the other guy turn to a different course than runway heading?

I'm kinda confused on the whole 2 or 3 plane issue. If it was two plane, your primary mistake that you want to never repeat is taking your eyes off conflicting traffic until established clear with no further risk. You can fly the plane on peripheral vision, watch the traffic.

Before you file the ASRS think over everything very critically, including your own mistakes and how they compounded with the other mistakes to form the chain of events that came about. I doubt anything will come out of it all, but a good self critical honest analysis on the ASRS may save you a 709 ride in the future. The form itself does nothing to protect you from the 44709 process, they need nor reason or excuse, they have the authority to recheck you at any time for no reason at all. They don't, but they can. By providing an honest critical, including self critical, analysis and conclusions with future plans on how to avoid similar on the ASRS form they may read, if your conclusions are correct and they feel that you are not likely to repeat this mistake, the intent of the 44709 process has been served. You have shown the correct attitude in dealing with matters of safety, namely humble introspection is a value they want to see, so give it to them from the start.

 

[gprellwitz]

Or aborted the take off, was there a third plane involved, or did you take your eyes off the traffic and lose them? I'm not quite clear. If you took your eyes off of them, that is the lesson you should take away from this, never take your eyes off conflicting traffic until clear.

The reason I am confused about a third plane is that in order to have that kind of a conflict with crossing runway traffic that you were aware of means you not only took your eyes off of them, you climbed before crossing their path line. Did you start climbing before you got to the intersecting runway, or did the other guy turn to a different course than runway heading?

I'm kinda confused on the whole 2 or 3 plane issue. If it was two plane, your primary mistake that you want to never repeat is taking your eyes off conflicting traffic until established clear with no further risk. You can fly the plane on peripheral vision, watch the traffic.

Before you file the ASRS think over everything very critically, including your own mistakes and how they compounded with the other mistakes to form the chain of events that came about. I doubt anything will come out of it all, but a good self critical honest analysis on the ASRS may save you a 709 ride in the future. The form itself does nothing to protect you from the 44709 process, they need nor reason or excuse, they have the authority to recheck you at any time for no reason at all. They don't, but they can. By providing an honest critical, including self critical, analysis and conclusions with future plans on how to avoid similar on the ASRS form they may read, if your conclusions are correct and they feel that you are not likely to repeat this mistake, the intent of the 44709 process has been served. You have shown the correct attitude in dealing with matters of safety, namely humble introspection is a value they want to see, so give it to them from the start.

It sounded to me like they were only two aircraft involved. However, I question your stricture to never take ones eyes off of the other aircraft. What if there actually had been three aircraft involved. In that case he may have fixated on one, totally missing the other about to hit him. I don't think that's the situation in this case, but, unless the aircraft in sight is so close that you are having to maneuver to avoid them (as in this situation), still look around to make sure that you have good situational awareness.

 

[Henning]

It sounded to me like they were only two aircraft involved. However, I question your stricture to never take ones eyes off of the other aircraft. What if there actually had been three aircraft involved. In that case he may have fixated on one, totally missing the other about to hit him. I don't think that's the situation in this case, but, unless the aircraft in sight is so close that you are having to maneuver to avoid them (as in this situation), still look around to make sure that you have good situational awareness.

You catch moving traffic best in your peripheral vision, that's why you keep your eyes moving, once you have known conflicting traffic to focus on, then you want your focus there until clear.