Do Ground School Endorsements Expire?

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Jeffythequick

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jeffythequick
I was going to take my PAR test, and the person at the aviation school (I took the ground school at a community college, and I went to the local CATSTEST place, where the conversation went like this:
“You want to take the FAR, right? This endorsement is no good. There is no such thing as an ‘FAA Private Pilot Aeronautical Knowledge test’ “
“This is what Freddy gave us.”
“Well, I’ll let Freddy know, and he can give you a proper endorsement. Also, the FAR numbers (61.35(a) and 61.105(b) are not valid anymore. They’ve been changed. I can't take this.”
He went over to his computer and he said he was sending an e-mail to Freddy. I went to my car and got my Jeppesen logbook, which Freddy endorsed as well.
“Will this work?”
“No. This has the same FAR Section numbers, and doesn’t specify which test. This could be ballooning, glider, or anything.”
“But the Jeppesen logbook has these endorsement pages pre-typed.” I protested
“When was this printed? Oh, 2011, that’s why.”
I bought this last week, on the 6th at Regal. I was angry and frustrated at this time. I looked at him blankly, but didn't say anything.
“You see, “ he continued, “I’d rather have one person angry with me than the FAA pulling my ability to give tests. I deal with the FAA all the time, and these things have to be exact.”

So, my questions for the esteemed panel are:
1. Do Ground School Endorsements expire? This was our book:
http://jeppdirect.jeppesen.com/main/store/product_details.jsp?id=prod912
In all of the FAA searches I did, I only get the 2 year expiration on a passed test, not the endorsement.

2. Is my endorsement valid? Here is the text of it from my Jeppesen logbook, item number 10001315-001):
Private pilot aeronautical knowledge: 61.35(a)(1) and 61.105(b)
I certify that I have given Jeffythequick [First name, MI, Last name] the ground school training required by FAR 61.105(b), and that he/she is prepared for the required knowledge test.

Signed: Freddy Date: 06/09/2016
CFI#: 8675309 Expiration: (blank)

3. Is my paper endorsement valid (the certificate I got upon passing the final in Ground School)? Here is the text:
Endorsement for Aeronautical Knowledge per FAR 61.35(a) and 61.105(b)
I certify that I have given the applicable Ground Training required by FAR 61.215(b) to Jeffythequick, and find this student is prepared for the FAA Private Pilot Aeronautical Knowledge test.

Freddy

Signature of Freddy Date: 06/06/2016
 
Dunno, but mine was a simple letter that was basically this:
-------------
I certify that (insert student name) has received the required training of 14 CFR 61.105. I have determined that

(insert student name) is prepared for the Private Pilot, Airplane FAA Knowledge Exam.

signature of CFI, cfi#

This endorsement is null and void after Thursday, June 08, 2017.
-------------


Maybe have Freddy write you a new one as such? Your endorsement is fresh, not sure what that has to do with what book you used to study, I would think nothing.
 
So, your CFI put the "null and void" statement in there as part of the typed letter (I assume the date was entered manually)

Mine doesn't have that.

BTW, thank you for the info. This is totally bizarre behavior on the testing center's part.

I took Freddy's endorsements across the parking lot to the competition. I didn't say anything about the previous place, and they had no problem with the endorsements. I thought that the Jeppesen logbook endorsement would suffice, since there are probably 5000 pilots out there with one, and if you go to Jeppesen's website, that's what they're selling.
Logbook: http://jeppdirect.jeppesen.com/main/store/product_details.jsp?id=prod966
 
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That's a GNS card
 
Welcome to the FAA. Get Freddy to give you a new endorsement that matches what the test center wants. It's a pain in the ass, but it's most likely the fastest and easiest way to fix the problem.

To answer your questions:
1) To my knowledge, the endorsement does not expire. It's possible that reg numbers will change such that the endorsement references the wrong parts. That might make them invalid - I don't know. 61.35(a) is the FAA reg that says you need an edorsement to take the exam
61.105(b) is the list of knowledge items the instructor is supposed to teach/review
Neither of these numbers have changed in the recent past.

2) This is the endorsement text the FAA recommends that instructors use:
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training in accordance with
§ 61.105. I have determined he/she is prepared for the (name of) knowledge test.
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-19

There are a dozen or so different private pilot exams, so it really should say which test (private pilot - airplane). I have no idea if it is strictly required, but I always include the exact test name.

For what it's worth, I had the exact same text as you on my endorsement and there were no problems, but that was years ago. I think they are checking these more strictly than they used to. Seems like a colossal waste of time to me.

3) If it actually says 61.215(b), then no I don't think it is valid.
It also doesn't list his certificate number which needs to be on there.
Same possible issue as before with test name.
 
Freddy needs to get his poop in a group. Endorsements and the proper wording thereof are hugely important, both to the FAA and to the CFI if people start reviewing a pilot's logbook for some reason.
 
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\__[Ô]__/ said:
Welcome to the FAA. Get Freddy to give you a new endorsement that matches what the test center wants. It's a pain in the ass, but it's most likely the fastest and easiest way to fix the problem.

To answer your questions:
1) To my knowledge, the endorsement does not expire. It's possible that reg numbers will change such that the endorsement references the wrong parts. That might make them invalid - I don't know. 61.35(a) is the FAA reg that says you need an edorsement to take the exam
61.105(b) is the list of knowledge items the instructor is supposed to teach/review
Neither of these numbers have changed in the recent past.

2) This is the endorsement text the FAA recommends that instructors use:
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training in accordance with
§ 61.105. I have determined he/she is prepared for the (name of) knowledge test.
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-19

There are a dozen or so different private pilot exams, so it really should say which test (private pilot - airplane). I have no idea if it is strictly required, but I always include the exact test name.

For what it's worth, I had the exact same text as you on my endorsement and there were no problems, but that was years ago. I think they are checking these more strictly than they used to. Seems like a colossal waste of time to me.

3) If it actually says 61.215(b), then no I don't think it is valid.
It also doesn't list his certificate number which needs to be on there.
Same possible issue as before with test name.
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1) I've talked to a few people, including at the testing mothership, and they're all perplexed where the 6 month time limit comes from. At another testing center, where I'm going next Saturday to take the test, I brought this up, and the proctor over there said, "that makes no sense at all. If the CFI puts an expiration date on there, then we go by that, otherwise, it's good forever." Another conversation told me of an mechanic that had an endorsement from the 80's that they used to take the test with no issues.

2) As for the test name, I'm more of a "dude, you should know what test you're taking, and if you don't, it's on you..." but then again, for the basic ground school, we're all n00bs, so making this as clear as possible is helpful. The guy at the testing place really doesn't want to discuss this (I'll keep the saga going in post below; I just want to answer the questions now).

3) Thank you for clarification. I was looking at 14 CFR 61.215(b), and it looks more like (a) is appropriate, but wouldn't an AGI also have to be a ground instructor as well? I know that's a process of affirmation by association, so having the 61.215(a) would probably make this better. His CFI # is on there. I just don't want to throw him under the bus.

He is re-issuing the endorsement. However, as a bonus, I did ask him at the end of class to also endorse my logbook, and (I don't have it with me at the moment), it had similar wording, but that was no good to the proctor as well.

Thank you for again for your knowledge.
 
The saga continues (with a happy ending):
First off, I want to say something about the owner of the place that rejected my endorsement:
He is a 24 year army veteran, and someone that does Angel Flights and helps out Wounded Warriors (I did not find this on his website, but in news articles I found online). He has also set up a non-profit airplane sharing program that has competitive rates for around here. Based on that, I respect him for service to our country and more importantly, his service to veterans in need.

The owner of the place that had the issue with the endorsement e-mailed me back this morning, essentially re-stating what was said before by the guy at the front desk. I asked him, respectfully, for where he gets the basis, in 14 CFR, for his rejection, as when there are two people that disagree, having the basis of that disagreement out in the open leads to resolution more quickly than "because I said so." (There are plenty of shows on cable news that do the latter...). I will let everyone in on the response. I know that I am just "some guy that came in off the street with a crappy endorsement," but I am also communicating with 14 other people in my class about this experience. We're all new, and getting shot down out of the gate is not a recipe for success in flight training. I asked him for that, and what he expects to see when he looks at an endorsement from a ground school. The 15 of us all have the same endorsement paperwork, and if they're getting turned away, then something needs to change, either the endorsement, the proctor of the tests, the understanding of all involved, or the place we go to take these tests.

So far, we are getting the endorsement changed, I'm learning, as for the third item, I'm understanding a lot more..., and I'm taking the test elsewhere next Saturday. There's no point going to a testing center where I've got this episode hanging over me.

I closed out my e-mail to him with "If I'm out of line for asking all these questions or wanting to know the exact part of the FAR (14 CFR), please let me know. I have worked with the FAA* as well, and they are quite clear what item you are violating, and they cite where in the FAR, or other regulation or procedure comes from. I do ask questions to get to the root of the problem, and sometimes it bothers people. Just ask my wife..."

*It's fun when you tell them they're wrong on their interpretations. However, we have the text in front of us when we have these discussions, and it's two (usually more) smart people disagreeing to come to understanding, not a battle of wills.
 
Jeffythequick said:
2) As for the test name, I'm more of a "dude, you should know what test you're taking, and if you don't, it's on you..." but then again, for the basic ground school, we're all n00bs, so making this as clear as possible is helpful. The guy at the testing place really doesn't want to discuss this (I'll keep the saga going in post below; I just want to answer the questions now).

3) Thank you for clarification. I was looking at 14 CFR 61.215(b), and it looks more like (a) is appropriate, but wouldn't an AGI also have to be a ground instructor as well? I know that's a process of affirmation by association, so having the 61.215(a) would probably make this better. His CFI # is on there. I just don't want to throw him under the bus.
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It's maybe an academic discussion at this point because you'll get a new endorsement or go somewhere else or both (good luck on the exam, BTW)

For those who care, my interpretations:
2) The issue isn't so much the student accidentally taking the wrong test - I agree with you, they should know what they are taking. The issue is that the FAA requires you to be authorized to take the test. The endorsement is (supposed to be) authorisation for only one of the dozen or so private pilot tests. The guy you talked to makes a valid point: If it doesn't list which one, it could be interpreted as permission to take one you're not actually authorised to take (oh, the horror!). That's why it should list that specific test.
From a practical standpoint, the preprinted text in your logbook doesn't specific which exam and it's probably been used by thousands of people. This is the first time I've heard of a proctor not accepting it.

3) 61.215(a) lists the the privileges of a basic ground instructor (BGI), 61.215(b) is for the advanced ground instructor (AGI). You can go right to AGI without being a BGI and nearly everyone does that. So he almost certainly is exercising the privileges of an AGI as described by (b). The problem with the endorsement is that saying, "I certify that I have given the applicable Ground Training required by FAR 61.215(b)" makes no sense. 61.215(b) doesn't specify any required ground training it only says he's allowed to provide ground training that is required by other regulations. He's supposed to be specifying the reg that lists the training he gave you (61.105), not the one that gives him permission to give you training and an endorsement.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
It's maybe an academic discussion at this point because you'll get a new endorsement or go somewhere else or both (good luck on the exam, BTW)
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Thank you for your insight. I did make an appointment for next Saturday to take it at an alternate location. I'll update this with the score.

The next thing I'm working on is getting flight schools, the local community college, and my employer to have a course that they'll pay for. (They'll pay for the CFI, not the airplane rental)

Challenge: Accepted!
 
Passed with a 93%
:D

You just don't want me towing your glider while drunk over class G (or was it E?) airspace in a car, after 60 days.

(a smash-up of the questions I missed)
 
airheadpenguin said:
Because it's easy and the form is there to fill out all nice and tidy. Same reason all of my instructors have
Ok, whatever. Doesn't seem too bright, considering 61-65 is even mentioned on the CFI written tests (all of them) as the definitive source for endorsements and it's a free download... Shrug.
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