Disturbing Situation

[AdamZ]

I have an acquaintance I know as a service provider to local attorneys ( not necessarily important other than to preface the conversation) Anyway today I hired this person to do some work for a case I was working on and we began to speak about aviation. This person is a student pilot and has bounced somethings off me from time to time. (Hereinafter "Student")
I had invited student to the Wings fly-b-q as they train at another local field. Student couldn't make it b/c they were doing a solo XC that day. Today in court student tells me they had a bad situation on the solo XC I instinctively told student If they learned something from the situation to consider it a positive.
I may have spoken to soon. Student relates to me that on the solo XC they got lost. OK no biggie that happens to a lot of folks. Then student tells me they flew 25 miles beyond the destination airport and busts the expanded P-40 by one mile but does not realize the bust until they get back to the home field. Apparently after going 1 mile into P-40 Student by shear luck decides that at that point to turn around and go fly home without landing at intended destination so no XC. Student goes on to tell me that they think they then busted the Philly Bravo on the way back home. Student told me Philly approach helped student get back home but didn't say anything about busting the Bravo. When they get back to the home filed Student is told to immediately contact Washington. Student does so and is told they busted P-40 ( Prez was there) asked a ton of questions and told that they would have scrambled jets in another minute, next time be more careful and FAA said they won't take any action.
So I ask student Who were you talking to. Student says CFI " dosen't believe in Flight Following" Ugh! I asked if she used a VOR to determine position. Student said OBS worked but LCD readout on NavRadio did't work so couldn't tell what freq was tuned in. I explain that student needs to assure all equip is operational and tested with in requirements prior to flight etc. Then I ask what Navigation technique student was using, Pilotage or Dead Reckoning. Student says " I think both, I was just flying by landmarks that I had seen last time I was there" ( meaning the XC destination) I was talking to student about situational awareness visibility requirements etc. and I Mentioned something about "IMC" Student says " What's IMC?" ( student completed hood work a while ago) I start talking to student about students home field and I ask the length of the runway. Student says "oh its short I think 2000' " in actuality runway is just under 3000'.
Student tells me they have 49 hours and is one XC away from check ride which they expect to take w/in two weeks.
Most of you understand where I'm going here. I'm pretty concerned. I don't know if this is a bad student a bad CFI or what. But IMHO there is just to much knowledge student is lacking at this stage of the game. Situational awareness was totally absent. Not only did they bust P-40 and overshoot the destination field by 25 miles but Student thought they busted Phillys Bravo. In looking at the charts Student Should not have been ANYWHERE NEAR Phillys Bravo even with getting lost. If they did indeed bust it, I can't for the life of me figure out how they got into it from where they were. I don't think they busted it but the fact they thought they did is almost as bad because I don't think they were anywhere near it. I was asking what equipment student has in their flight bag. Student said "well have a flight computer. What else should I have?" Student dosen't have a flash light, nothing. I never fly at night and have two flashlights extra batteries and a mini light clipped to the bag as well. You know how they say aviation accidents are not just one bad decision but are usually proceeded by a "chain of bad decisions or event" I think this was a classic "Chain". I don't fly Cessnas and never flew a 150 but I remember from one of Joe's post they have about 2hrs fuel plus reserves. Student took a 160-175 mile XC with no fuel stop in a 150. Like I said I don't have a clue as to the numbers for a 150 but I think this might be pushin it. Even absent a fuel situation, Something is very wrong here. How do you not know how long your home field run way is? I am concerned about the students knowledge and the CFI ( whom I know nothing about). I can't help but feel that the CFI is not doing their job. Perhaps I am out of line belive me I am not absolving the student who I think has about 50 hours.
I am concerned about the student safety and yes even my own. I am by no means a pilot who knows it all but I am IMHO very competent and absolutely neurotic about safety. I have become very angry with pilots who ignore safety rules and who are selfish and IMO incompetent. I don't want them up there endangering me, my family or my friends. I suspect the system will always churn out idiots now and then and I don't' want this student to be one of them.
What do I tell student? " Hey your CFI must not care about you b/c they aren't teaching you Shi^. " or " Hey student your situation tells me you are no where near ready to get your ticket even if you do pass the practical" or Hey I know your only two weeks away from your practical but RUN do not walk away from your CFI or flight school to one more competent? Am I wrong here folks?

 

[Richard]

I stopped reading where you said the student is one X/C away. I know where you're going with this. The solution is for you to contact that area's FSDO and talk to the safety officer. Express your concerns and supporting evidence. He'll take it from there. You'll remain anonymous and will have prevented a more disturbing situation.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Sounds like you're right on. The apparent situation is quite amazing, isn't it ?

I have an acquaintance I know as a service provider to local attorneys ( not necessarily important other than to preface the conversation) Anyway today I hired this person to do some work for a case I was working on and we began to speak about aviation. This person is a student pilot and has bounced somethings off me from time to time. (Hereinafter "Student")
I had invited student to the Wings fly-b-q as they train at another local field. Student couldn't make it b/c they were doing a solo XC that day. Today in court student tells me they had a bad situation on the solo XC I instinctively told student If they learned something from the situation to consider it a positive.
I may have spoken to soon. Student relates to me that on the solo XC they got lost. OK no biggie that happens to a lot of folks. Then student tells me they flew 25 miles beyond the destination airport and busts the expanded P-40 by one mile but does not realize the bust until they get back to the home field. Apparently after going 1 mile into P-40 Student by shear luck decides that at that point to turn around and go fly home without landing at intended destination so no XC. Student goes on to tell me that they think they then busted the Philly Bravo on the way back home. Student told me Philly approach helped student get back home but didn't say anything about busting the Bravo. When they get back to the home filed Student is told to immediately contact Washington. Student does so and is told they busted P-40 ( Prez was there) asked a ton of questions and told that they would have scrambled jets in another minute, next time be more careful and FAA said they won't take any action.
So I ask student Who were you talking to. Student says CFI " dosen't believe in Flight Following" Ugh! I asked if she used a VOR to determine position. Student said OBS worked but LCD readout on NavRadio did't work so couldn't tell what freq was tuned in. I explain that student needs to assure all equip is operational and tested with in requirements prior to flight etc. Then I ask what Navigation technique student was using, Pilotage or Dead Reckoning. Student says " I think both, I was just flying by landmarks that I had seen last time I was there" ( meaning the XC destination) I was talking to student about situational awareness visibility requirements etc. and I Mentioned something about "IMC" Student says " What's IMC?" ( student completed hood work a while ago) I start talking to student about students home field and I ask the length of the runway. Student says "oh its short I think 2000' " in actuality runway is just under 3000'.
Student tells me they have 49 hours and is one XC away from check ride which they expect to take w/in two weeks.
Most of you understand where I'm going here. I'm pretty concerned. I don't know if this is a bad student a bad CFI or what. But IMHO there is just to much knowledge student is lacking at this stage of the game. Situational awareness was totally absent. Not only did they bust P-40 and overshoot the destination field by 25 miles but Student thought they busted Phillys Bravo. In looking at the charts Student Should not have been ANYWHERE NEAR Phillys Bravo even with getting lost. If they did indeed bust it, I can't for the life of me figure out how they got into it from where they were. I don't think they busted it but the fact they thought they did is almost as bad because I don't think they were anywhere near it. I was asking what equipment student has in their flight bag. Student said "well have a flight computer. What else should I have?" Student dosen't have a flash light, nothing. I never fly at night and have two flashlights extra batteries and a mini light clipped to the bag as well. You know how they say aviation accidents are not just one bad decision but are usually proceeded by a "chain of bad decisions or event" I think this was a classic "Chain". I don't fly Cessnas and never flew a 150 but I remember from one of Joe's post they have about 2hrs fuel plus reserves. Student took a 160-175 mile XC with no fuel stop in a 150. Like I said I don't have a clue as to the numbers for a 150 but I think this might be pushin it. Even absent a fuel situation, Something is very wrong here. How do you not know how long your home field run way is? I am concerned about the students knowledge and the CFI ( whom I know nothing about). I can't help but feel that the CFI is not doing their job. Perhaps I am out of line belive me I am not absolving the student who I think has about 50 hours.
I am concerned about the student safety and yes even my own. I am by no means a pilot who knows it all but I am IMHO very competent and absolutely neurotic about safety. I have become very angry with pilots who ignore safety rules and who are selfish and IMO incompetent. I don't want them up there endangering me, my family or my friends. I suspect the system will always churn out idiots now and then and I don't' want this student to be one of them.
What do I tell student? " Hey your CFI must not care about you b/c they aren't teaching you Shi^. " or " Hey student your situation tells me you are no where near ready to get your ticket even if you do pass the practical" or Hey I know your only two weeks away from your practical but RUN do not walk away from your CFI or flight school to one more competent? Am I wrong here folks?

 

[SkyHog]

I told you this in the chat, but I figured I'd post here for everyone to see....I don't think its going to be an issue, because if he honestly made those mistakes, and doesn't have the basic knowledge, I'll bet he fails both the Oral and the Practical (if he gets that far)

My guess is that he is embellishing a story about him being lost, he is lying, or he truly got lost, and his CFI will be working with him on it. I am also betting that he is no where near ready to take the checkride, and NO CFI would put their pass rate on the line for it.

But - on the downside, it could all be true...in which case, this is bad - very bad.

 

[poadeleted3]

"Then I ask what Navigation technique student was using, Pilotage or Dead Reckoning. Student says " I think both, I was just flying by landmarks that I had seen last time I was there" ( meaning the XC destination) I was talking to student about situational awareness visibility requirements etc. and I Mentioned something about "IMC" Student says " What's IMC?" ( student completed hood work a while ago) I start talking to student about students home field and I ask the length of the runway. Student says "oh its short I think 2000' " in actuality runway is just under 3000'.
Student tells me they have 49 hours and is one XC away from check ride which they expect to take w/in two weeks."
That sounds soooooo uncool to me. The student doesn't sound like she knows crap. That's not something that can be blamed on the CFI, necessarily. Some people are bad students, and don't do their work. But if the student is as clueless as she sounds, I can't imagine how a good, caring CFI wouldn't be aware of that, or how they would let her solo. She sounds like a candidate for an NTSB report and a matchbox burial one day. She's got a lot of studying to do. I'd surely be contacting FSDO and let them check up on the situation. It's what they get paid to do, and they will be able to determine if the CFI needs some work or not. Hopefully, the student isn't really as clueless as she sounds. At 50 hours she shouldn't be. How did she manage to pass the written?

 

[RotaryWingBob]

If you feel the student's account is truthful, I'd handle it pretty much as you suggested, Adam.

 

[Bill]

I am by no means a pilot who knows it all but I am IMHO very competent and absolutely neurotic about safety. I have become very angry with pilots who ignore safety rules and who are selfish and IMO incompetent.

As other have said, there is enough blame to go around. One, CFI should be preaching the use of all available tools for situational awareness. On my solo XC's, I used everything in the bird, plus had flight following. Still do, extra eyes good.

Two, student must be self motivated enough to become a good, safe pilot. If student is approaching this like most people approach driving a car, student has bad times ahead. What are student's goals? Does student wish to travel by small aircraft, or just fly locally and look at the cows? Sport pilot?

I sure hope student doesn't pass the practical. (I know that sounds terrible, but so be it.)

 

[RogerT]

What do I tell student? " Hey your CFI must not care about you b/c they aren't teaching you Shi^. " or " Hey student your situation tells me you are no where near ready to get your ticket even if you do pass the practical" or Hey I know your only two weeks away from your practical but RUN do not walk away from your CFI or flight school to one more competent? Am I wrong here folks?

I think you're not far off, Adam. Something is wrong here. The CFI
"doesn't believe in FF"? In areas with lots of restricted airspace? Either
this student had major brain fade when the flight started .. or the CFI
didn't do a very good job of determining her skill level and knowledge
of navigation. I would encourage the student to take a ride with another
CFI and have them evaluate where's she's at.

 

[Missa]

To me this sounds like a Bad CFI, the student doesn't seem to be aware of what they don't know. And if they don't know that they don't know something, they can't fix it. Yes, the student should be reading a good book but if they have no previous aviation background they are probably looking for guidance from their CFI as to what is good reference material. We have a CFI like this at my field, he talks a good game but isn't a good instructor. Two people have gone from him to my CFI and the holes in their knowledge was surprising. I know, I was one of the two.

Go ahead and follow the other advice about talking to the FSDO about the CFI but also talk directly to the student and suggest she get a new instructor. It may take some extra time and money but learning from the lowest bidder in not a wise move. Also encourage her to visit a good message board (like PoA) to get information from other sources and meet other aviation people.

Missa

 

[fgcason]

Pilotage or Dead Reckoning. Student says " I think both, I was just flying by landmarks that I had seen last time I was there"
Student says " What's IMC?"
Student says "oh its short I think 2000' " in actuality runway is just under 3000'.
Student said "well have a flight computer. What else should I have?" Student dosen't have a flash light, nothing.
Student took a 160-175 mile XC with no fuel stop in a 150. Like I said I don't have a clue as to the numbers for a 150 but I think this might be pushin it.

175*2 = 350 + 24.5gal = just about endurance limits says this chicken

It's been a long while since I flew a 152 and I'm not digging through boxes for the manual this morning but IIRC 55% power (2100-2150ish rpm) is around 400ktmi at 90ish kts for >4 hrs and that's just begging for off airport landing practice in the real world with an inexperienced pilot even if they are pulling the red knob out. (Unlike most people, flying slow doesn't bother me at all however I'd be getting real nervous at that range even if I knew the plane well) You know as well as I do that they'll run at 65% which is just a bigger hole in the fuel tanks.

Something is very wrong here. How do you not know how long your home field run way is? I am concerned about the students knowledge and the CFI ( whom I know nothing about). I can't help but feel that the CFI is not doing their job. Perhaps I am out of line belive me I am not absolving the student who I think has about 50 hours.

Lost, not using FF, inop equipment I can see happening.
The rest, well, how do you not know that? This is student basics here, not checkride stuff. IMO 49 hours and one XC from the ride is too much experience not to know that.

I may be way out of line here, and no offense intended if I am, but I kept waiting for you to say this person really isn't a student and trying to pass themselves off as one by adlibbing around specific straightforward questions that are asked by someone who knows the answers.

If this really is a student, this needs to be handled even if a 2x4 is required. That poor quality of training needs to stay on the ground and drive cars until a better instructor is found.

 

[SJP]

I hate to second guess other's teaching, but when it is obvious the student isn't "getting it", sometimes you have to push them in the right direction.

I would definitely talk to the student directly, maybe you could give him a "practice" Oral, probe his level of knowledge a little more. Perhaps you could also raise the matter with the local FSDO, or the Chief Instructor at the School, maybe even the local DE if you know who it is and so on.

From what you are saying, there really should be no way the student would get past the oral exam, let alone get past the practical. If they do (or similarly prepared students have) then surely it would be indicative of a major breakdown of the standards in that district, something the FSDO should be all over like a rash.

 

[grattonja]

I'm one of the last people on this board to ever recommend reporting another pilot/CFI/student etc. My posts in the past will support that.

Frankly, IF this student was telling you the flat truth, I think you have got to follow the advice of the others on here and call the FSDO. The student sounded like s/he lacks significant basic knowledge to go anywhere near a checkride. It is scary to think they might somehow pass. At 40 hours, not knowing how long the runway at the home airport is constitutes a basic failure, even if the student was lying about other things. You don't go within a cross country of P-40 these days without flight following. Student was lucky to not get an enforcement action as it was.

Jim G

 

[silver-eagle]

The number of hours one has doesn't necessarily bespeak of ones experience or training. The other thing is often so much is thrown at a student that they are overwhelmed. While demonstrating that they know how to use flight following or a VOR, they really don't know. It's rote learning. They don't learn how to apply it.
The other part of this is whether it was ALL hype. Hanger flying gone bad.
If you like the Student, a workable solution would be to get them to fly with the school's chief pilot. Some schools do this automatically. If Student is really deficient, when the Chief does a pre-practical, it will show up. Also, remember back to when you were a student. How long was your tune-up to the practical and what did you need work on.

 

[pete177]

Well, before you go calling the faa why not see if you can set up a meeting between you, the student and the cfi and get it all straightend out. If the cfi is attached to a local fbo, I'm sure the fbo owner would be all for that. As an attorney, I'm sure your well aware that there is two sides to every story and in my view you have a common courtesy obligation to speak to the cfi before calling the faa. I applaud your willingness to get involved.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Student tells me they have 49 hours and is one XC away from check ride which they expect to take w/in two weeks.

Did they count this fiasco as part of the required cross country time. No landing = no cross country. If the FSDO were to get involved in this, the student better have logged it correctly.

Dave

 

[Gary]

Adam:


Two different scenario's.

First, the student is making up the story, or embellishing what happened, for whatever reason. In this case you have no hard facts to do much of anything.

Second, the story is true. In this case, its an accident waiting to happen.
What's the overall charater of the student? Normally a reasoned and level-headed person, or a person who gets flustered and suffers from brain freeze? If true, this person is woefully clueless and really needs some help. Agreed, a low time pilot can easily get disoriented and lost, but the student should (and needs to) know there is lots of help available if that happens. If this story is true a good sit down talk is in order. If the students CFI let the student go on this flight and the student is really not ready, the CFI needs the talking to.

Maybe the first step is to go over the flight with the student and determine just where she stands in her training.

Gary

 

[poadeleted20]

This is a good one to take to your local friendly Aviation Safety Counselor. If you don't know who that is for the field out of which your friend is flying, call the FSDO, ask for the Safety Program Manager, and ask who the ASC is for that field. If her airport is in the Philly District, call Eileen Iandola at (610) 595-1500, ext 240. At any rate, your friend is clearly not close to ready for the check if she doesn't know about flight following or the requirement for all items to be functional before flight unless disposed of IAW 14 CFR 91.213.

BTW, I also strongly recommend a detailed NASA ASRS report to be filed within 10 days of the event to cover her in case the FAA changes its mind and decides to pursue the matter.

 

[corjulo]

Funny,

My CFI put a GPS in my flight bag, turned on and told me to use it if I was even remotely uncertain where I was.

 

[poadeleted3]

Funny,

My CFI put a GPS in my flight bag, turned on and told me to use it if I was even remotely uncertain where I was.

My CFI knew I had my GPS with me, but believed me when I told her, truthfully of course, that I would not use it unless I got lost. I never did break that thing out before I got my PPL except for a couple times just to fiddle with it. Actually, CFI usually did the fiddling. Now, I still haven't used it since it doesn't have airspace, and most of the planes I rent have panel mounts.

 

[Don Jones]

Student couldn't make it b/c they were doing a solo XC that day. Today in court student tells me they had a bad situation on the solo XC I instinctively told student If they learned something from the situation to consider it a positive.

Who is "they". If those are their words it obviously was not solo. Wonder if the whole thing just isn't a big bs job. If it is really true, I agree with Nick, no way they will pass the ride, but a call to the FSDO or as Ron pointed out the ASI is in order.
Don

 

[SJP]

Funny,

My CFI put a GPS in my flight bag, turned on and told me to use it if I was even remotely uncertain where I was.

One of the CFIs I know puts a handheld GPS in a black plastic bag, and seals the bag with tamper-evident fasteners.

The GPS is setup with the home field in it so the student can find their way home easily should they get lost. Of course, if the student has to use the GPS, the CFI's rule is that the flight doesn't count, and they'll have to re-fly it.

Flight Following was a requirement of my long x-c - plus my route included 2 Class C's (LAN & FNT) and a TRSA (MBS) - so talking to controllers and having to update the flight plan while flying was part of the test.

 

[SJP]

My CFI knew I had my GPS with me

<snip>

Now, I still haven't used it since it doesn't have airspace, and most of the planes I rent have panel mounts.

My buddy and I use my little handheld one (Magellan Blazer 12) quite a bit - we find it's a real nice companion to the usual Pilotage/VOR plan I put together when we fly somewhere. My wife bought it for me years ago when we were thinking of buying a boat - never did, but I kept the GPS

It doesn't have airspace on it, but I draw our course on an old chart (we have the new one with us too), pick out some visual or VOR navigation points, and enter those in as landmarks in the GPS. We then have a backup to the VORs in the plane, plus confirmation of our navigation as we fly. It is also very useful when trying to pick out a small airfield from 10 miles out in the Michigan haze - even PTK can be tough to see some days. As we aren't using it as a primary navigation method, it still makes us focus on proper planning and chart work. You can pick them up now for $20-30 on Ebay.

Also nice to see the ground speed hit 150+ kts on the way to breakfast

 

[AdamZ]

Who is "they". If those are her words it obviously was not solo. Wonder if the whole thing just isn't a big bs job. If it is really true, I agree with Nick, no way she will pass the ride, but a call to the FSDO or as Ron pointed out the ASI is in order.
Don

I just used the word "they" to avoid calling the student he or she. Student was solo.

 

[Kyle Thornley]

Some investigation into the story is needed, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is true. Here's a Readers Digest story about one I know is true.

Student sent on long solo X/C, first leg 106 NM second leg 64 then back home of 150. Flies entire plan in C-172 with no FF and picks up no fuel, halfway through final leg, student becomes concerned with the look of the fuel tank needles (ya think?) and starts looking for a suitable airport to land at. Seems student's just been holding a heading and has no idea where they are at nor what is close by, but sees a runway in the distance that looks plenty big enough to work. Student lands on runway and now finds out they are on the surface of a fairly busy Class B field. Never knew what the airport was so of course couldn't have asked for clearance into the airspace let alone permission to land. Student is met by some angry ariport personel and is not allowed to fly the aircraft out. The CFI has to come and get it, along with what I can only guess was a painful meeting with the various authorities.

I know the student was aware of FF, VOR's, the 3 C's as well as pilotage, dead reckoning and the need to be given permission to enter Class B airspace, as the CFI was my CFI and he certainly taught all this to me. Not to mention he had taken me on a flight one day with the express intent of learning how to pump your own fuel, so there should have been no excuses Did the student just space out? Get lost? Figure the CFI wouldn't have sent them if they didn't have enough fuel for the entire flight? Who knows, but there it was. My CFI was dumbfounded, as he was a very careful man and would have never sent someone on the long flight without reviewing the planning, route and what-ifs. Flight following was also pretty much of a requirement when he was with you so why wasn't it used? No answers, only questions. Unless you climb in the heads of all involved, like the number of licks it takes to get to the tootsie roll center, the world may never know.

 

[Richard]

OPTIONS:

A) You do nothing: student and CFI continues as nothing is wrong. CFI has chance to similarly train other students. At the next airspace bust we wonder where these guys are coming from.

B) You talk to student: Student does realize full impact of what you're saying and continues. She tells CFI what you said which causes negative response from CFI. Student is caught in the middle. Your intended goal is not acheived.

C)You tell the student to RUN. You realize the student is not getting it. You use stronger language--now she hears you loud and clear. Decides you have a problem and says her CFI told her about guys like you.

D) You speak with Chief Flight Instructor or CFI himself. Face to face making accusations is never a good method. The chief backs his man up, says he's a great guy. Or, he tells you to stuff it. You have zero authority to do anything. You're left wondering about the true extent of the problem.

E) You contact the FSDO. They investigate. They review every little thing and find a core problem which any of the above options would not hav exposed. Also, they can control the situation because they have the authority to do so. No one knows it was you but a situation has been diffused. No more airspace busts, the sun rises again, oh what a glorious feeling, all is right in the world again. Besides, your reputation points with the FSDO is way up there.

EDIT: Stupid computer--do you see what it did?

 

[SJP]

A)
B)
C) etc...

EDIT: Stupid computer--do you see what it did?

hehe - exactly what you told it to

A )
B )
C ) works tho

I agree with your points, but know a local example where E was used, and the CFI that reported to the FSDO got blackmarked in the area and had a real problem trying to get any work from any of the schools afterward - someone in the FSDO told a buddy who reported the rulebreakers...and the grapevine took care of the rest.

Kinda damned if you do...damned if you dont...

 

[Missa]

I just used the word "they" to avoid calling the student he or she. Student was solo.

I asked if she used a VOR to determine position.

But you weren't very consistant at it.... I still would never know who it is..

Missa

 

[AdamZ]

But you weren't very consistant at it.... I still would never know who it is..

Missa

Doh! on me but then look at the hour of my post! yawn!