N747JB
Final Approach
There is a guy at my gym with a late model Camaro and a handicapped tag, he teaches martial arts!!!
Disabled Vet With Service Dog Kicked Off Of Airline.
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Velocity173
No joy you got specific answers to your question but yet you simply refuse to accept them. Don't start a poll if it's just going to be your view point.
ADA applies to airports and terminals not airlines. Airports and terminals receive government funding so they must comply. Airlines don't receive direct funding so they comply with the Air Carrier Access Act of 1986. You can start by reading CFR 383.37 Seat Assignments. You'll see none of it allows the service animal to physically occupy a seat. The animal has to be a the seat location of the disabled person. Most likely a bulkhead seat if requested. If the seat location doesn't accomadate the passenger and animal then another seat must be offered IF AVAILABLE.
The airline handled the situation by the book. The man overreacted and acted like a child. I don't care what kind of mental condition he has, there's no excuse for that kind of conduct.
Also we know nothing about the past history of this man. For those of you who think 100 % disability is hard to get and anyone who has been to combat is a "war veteran," think again. Fraudulent PTSD claims are a hot topic in the military right now. VA disability claims as a whole are at an all time high. I know of at least 3 people who I went to combat with who never actually saw combat and are getting 3 grand per month tax free for PTSD. One guy went home on R&R (never shot at) and didn't come back. Just young, immature people who didn't like the military and didn't want to work, found a way for the system to work for them.
There's a big difference between serving in a combat zone and being a combat veteran. So, before I stick up for someone and say they deserve all the benefits that a veteran deserves, I'd at least like to know their history first.
ADA applies to airports and terminals not airlines. Airports and terminals receive government funding so they must comply. Airlines don't receive direct funding so they comply with the Air Carrier Access Act of 1986. You can start by reading CFR 383.37 Seat Assignments. You'll see none of it allows the service animal to physically occupy a seat. The animal has to be a the seat location of the disabled person. Most likely a bulkhead seat if requested. If the seat location doesn't accomadate the passenger and animal then another seat must be offered IF AVAILABLE.
The airline handled the situation by the book. The man overreacted and acted like a child. I don't care what kind of mental condition he has, there's no excuse for that kind of conduct.
Also we know nothing about the past history of this man. For those of you who think 100 % disability is hard to get and anyone who has been to combat is a "war veteran," think again. Fraudulent PTSD claims are a hot topic in the military right now. VA disability claims as a whole are at an all time high. I know of at least 3 people who I went to combat with who never actually saw combat and are getting 3 grand per month tax free for PTSD. One guy went home on R&R (never shot at) and didn't come back. Just young, immature people who didn't like the military and didn't want to work, found a way for the system to work for them.
There's a big difference between serving in a combat zone and being a combat veteran. So, before I stick up for someone and say they deserve all the benefits that a veteran deserves, I'd at least like to know their history first.
I just have to look at those as a chicken or the egg scenario…
Are they handicapped because they are morbidly obese, or are they morbidly obese due to their disability?
I would say the majority are the former, but I do know a few who are because of the latter…
Didn't work that way for me.
I have lost 50 pounds in the last 5 years and have become dangerously thin
Gary F
Final Approach
I think that I could teach a monkey how to do a heart cath but I'm not so sure that a dog can do medically necessary work, whatever that means in terms of service animals.
I agree with the use of service animals for certain applications but now things have gotten out of hand. Seeing eye dogs are OK, but I am not convinced on the need for emotional support critters and many other expanded uses of service animals.
Gary F
Final Approach
Not just obesity but those with peripheral or coronary artery disease usually benefit from walking. I have only given out a small handful of handicap permits in 15 years. One of them went to a 22 year old kid who was waiting for a heart transplant.
You never know just by seeing them on the street.
I need one for no other reason than to wake up my wife in the middle of the night.
I need to be turned about every hour… 2 hours at the most because of pain.
Because of that, I have given her a sleep disorder by screwing up her REM phase of sleep over a long period of time.
Some nights… I can't wake her up by speaking, yelling, making odd sound effects for as long as 30 min. or more, and most of the time because of that cacophony, it startles her into a sleepwalking stage of fight or flight and is highly agitated, which makes the situation worse.
With absolutely no recall of it the next morning.
In the extreme cases, people have been known to become physically violent and a few of them actually killed their spouse.
So, all I need is for the dog to wake her up fully and in a gentle way.
To those who don't know our situation, they might assume it's just a pet with a special use vest so that we can take it out in public
Camaro
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Emotional Support Animals are not service dogs, so they have no coverage under the ADA, which means no public access. They are covered under the Fair Housing Act, and ACAA. So for example if someone has an Emotional Support Animal they can go to the airport, and get on a plane with it, but they can't take it into a restaurant at the airport. One of the main points of revision in 2010 was to remove ESAs from the service dog definition of the ADA.
As for other types of service dogs, I would have to know which ones you question to explain how valuable they are. For example my son is on the Autism spectrum he has 9 different neurological, and sensory disorders. What his service dog does for him is behavior disruption, when son starts to become overwhelmed and lock up Camaro will intervene and draw son's focus off of the stimuli and onto the dog which stops the meltdown. He also does the same when son is stimming and doing self injuring behavior. He also does tethering which prevents son from eloping as is very common for autistic children. If son is able to get away Camaro is trained in tracking, which is he has son's scent memorized and on command can begin search and rescue for son.
Before we got Camaro son's meltdowns were 90 minutes of restraining him because of wailing, kicking, hitting, biting, running off, and throwing things. Since we have had him it is 2 or 3 minutes of son being overwhelmed and then done before it escalates to fight or flight.
Service dogs are amazing and we are still discovering how much people with disabilities can be helped by them. They may not be as widely known or accepted as guide dogs, but that doesn't make them any less useful or needed. Hope that helps.
Mason
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The ADA specifically exempts travel by aircraft:
"The term "designated public transportation" means transportation (other than public school transportation) by bus, rail, or any other conveyance (other than transportation by aircraft or intercity or commuter rail transportation (as defined in section 12161 of this title)) that provides the general public with general or special service (including charter service) on a regular and continuing basis."
Section 12141 definitions
Again 12181:
"(10) Specified public transportation
The term "specified public transportation" means transportation by bus, rail, or any other conveyance (other than by aircraft) that provides the general public with general or special service (including charter service) on a regular and continuing basis."
It is well established that the ADA does not apply to airline passengers. The ACAA does.
"The term "designated public transportation" means transportation (other than public school transportation) by bus, rail, or any other conveyance (other than transportation by aircraft or intercity or commuter rail transportation (as defined in section 12161 of this title)) that provides the general public with general or special service (including charter service) on a regular and continuing basis."
Section 12141 definitions
Again 12181:
"(10) Specified public transportation
The term "specified public transportation" means transportation by bus, rail, or any other conveyance (other than by aircraft) that provides the general public with general or special service (including charter service) on a regular and continuing basis."
It is well established that the ADA does not apply to airline passengers. The ACAA does.
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Mason
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The Americans With Disabilities Act itself exempts aircraft travel. In a rare burst of wisdom, probably combined with some serious lobbying, Congress decided to address airline travel separately, and thus we have CFR 382, the Air Carrier Access Act.
See my post #88 and read the d@mn thing for yourself. It is well established that the ACAA is governing and the ADA does not apply to passengers, though it does cover employees.
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Thanks for an intelligent answer.
What about the ACAA? Is there any specific regulation that specifically does not allow service dogs (animals) from riding seats?
There needs to be new laws, if there is nothing preventing airlines from discriminating against the disabled.
How is having a dog sit on the floor discriminating against the disabled?
How long have you been an airline attorney?
If handicap placards are so easy to get, then how come so many disabled people can't get them?
It seems people with money and power are much more likely to get handicap placards whether they need them or not.
It seems the people that are poor because they are disabled, have the hardest time getting handicap place cards? Is that fair?
How long have you been a doctor?
Sounds like you have a lot of problems. Anger management and prejudice. So you hate people because they are fat? You blame them because they are fat? So you assume that being fat is morally their fault? Sometimes being fat is a symptom of other health problems. Hormone problems, pain, diabetes, etc.
If you're driving around someone in a wheelchair, why don't you just drop them off at a loading zone at the front door then park in a regular parking space?
Seizure alerting, calming someone with PSD, alerting and guiding away from fire, etc.
You still haven't support your claim that service dogs are required to be on the floor on an airline. Can't you support your claims with specific legislation for service dogs?
Why should I believe "answers" when people don't support their claims with specific legislation to support their specific claims? Why should I believe people, when I can find official information and legislation that seems to indicate otherwise?
Don't most disabled people occupy seats? I think seat location can be interpreted as meaning service dogs are allowed in the seat.
Where is specific legislation that specifically bars service dogs from airline seats? Where is specific legislation that specifically says service dogs have to be on the floor?
What book specifically bars service dogs from seats? What book instructs to antagonize and discriminate against the disabled?
So it's okay to discriminate against disabled veterans just because some people scam the system?
I know of an Iraqi war veteran that received brain damage from an IED. His brain damage was so bad he couldn't talk, dress himself, feed himself, walk, etc. The government and the government provided healthcare, only allowed a fraction of his disability. The government and the government provided healthcare, claimed he had pre-existing conditions. If any alleged pre-existing conditions were significantly disabling, then how did he qualify for combat without restrictions?
Yes, fat people are fat of their own doing.
Camaro
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My other response quoting the ADA regs saying it does not apply to air travel is still awaiting moderator approval because I am new and it contains a link. That being the case I will not provide the link but here is the ACAA law section of importance. The airline did not discriminate against this man.
Use this as your search and you should be able to find it
"humancentereddesign disability content laws"
This is from the ACAA regs.
Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability in Air Travel
73 FR 27614, May 13, 2008, as modified by:
● Correction Notice of 74 FR 11469, March 18, 2009
● Correction Notice of 75 FR 44885, July 30, 2010
[FONT="]This document includes the modifications from both Correction Notices.[/FONT]
[FONT="]DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION[/FONT]
14 CFR Part 382
(pg 79)
For example, suppose Part 382 does not require carriers to make modifications that would constitute an undue burden or would fundamentally alter their programs (382.13 (c)). Therefore, the following are not required in providing accommodations for users of service animals
Ø Requiring another passenger to give up all or a most of the space in front of his or her seat to accommodate a service animal. (There is nothing wrong with asking another passenger if the passenger would mind sharing foot space with a service animal, as distinct from telling the passenger that he or she must do so. Indeed, finding a passenger willing to share space is a common, and acceptable, method of finding an appropriate place for someone traveling with a service animal that may not be able to be seated in his or her original seat location.)
Ø Denying transportation to any individual on a flight in order to provide an accommodation to a passenger with a service animal;
Ø Furnishing more than one seat per ticket; and
Ø Providing a seat in a class of service other than the one the passenger has purchased. (While a carrier is not required to do so, there could be situations in which the carrier could voluntarily reseat a passenger with a service animal in a different seating class. that the economy cabin is completely full and no alternate seat location in that cabin can be found for a service animal that cannot be seated at the passenger’s original seat location. If the business or first class cabin has vacant space, the carrier could choose to move the passenger and animal into the vacant space, rather than make the passenger and animal take a later flight.)
So someone that is fat because of genetics, is at fault?
So someone is fat because of thyroid failure, is at fault?
So someone that gets fat because of an injury/pain, is at fault?
So someone has a medical condition that causes insatiable hunger, is at fault?
Yet you want to use a handicapped spot when you're driving someone else that is handicapped, because you're lazy?
There are ways to cope with all the above. I guess that everyone is a victim to you right? Nobody is responsible for anything that happens.
Mason
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I do not believe this is addressed specifically, although it states that the airline does not have to provide a free seat for an attendant, unless the airline itself is requiring the attendant.
But there are other rules and other case law regarding who or what may occupy a seat. Having the service animal sit at your feet is not discrimination.
The funny part on this is there was plenty of space in front of the seat the dog was occupying, the guy just wouldn't have the dog get on the floor and decided to act like a child playing the victim card. I have known a lot of Vietnam vets in my day, most all of them with some level of PTSD, some with major disabilities, none of them would have acted like this guy did. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't a vet at all, lots of phonies in the world. I have no room for self perpetuating victims.
That doesn’t answer the question. That doesn’t support the claims that many people have made.
Is there any specific regulation that specifically does not allow service dogs (animals) from riding seats?
Does it matter?
Mason
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Is this where you apologize to the people providing the facts for calling them bigots?
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No no, if you don't believe in victim mentality, you're a bigot, and a big fat poopy head as well.
Mason
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Do you know what's new/changed in that? Looked the same as it has for years to me, but I only read it a couple of times before.
Camaro
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I will try one more time. from the same regs page 35.
In modifying this paragraph in the guidance, we deleted the phrase concerning the potential purchase of a second seat, since there are probably no circumstances under which this would happen. If a flight is totally filled, there would not be any seat available to buy. If the flight had even one middle seat unoccupied, someone with a service animal could be seated next to the vacant seat, and it is likely that even a large animal could use some of the floor space of the vacant seat, making any further purchase unnecessary. Of course, service animals generally sit on the floor, so it is unlikely that a service animal would ever actually occupy a separate seat.
No one said the ACAA forbids dogs from sitting in a seat (as far as I recall). The point is it does not give the service dog the right to sit in a seat either. Therefore it is up to the FAA, then the airline, and then the flight crew.
Let's reverse it you show us legislation that protects a dog sitting unrestrained in a seat. Because for there to be discrimination you have to be prevented from doing something that is protected. That was not the case here.
EDIT: The ACAA does not forbid dogs from sitting in a seat, but it does give the airline the right to refuse to allow a dog to sit in a seat. From my last post
"the following are not required in providing accommodations for users of service animals
Ø Furnishing more than one seat per ticket"
Having the dog sit in another seat is something that by law the airline is allowed to deny, well unless the veteran is going to sit on the floor. There is Federal law saying the airline can say no and they did. He was wrong.
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In Australia they have to be on an absorbent pad and restrained.
Mason
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I do not discern any changes from my last annual training in 2005 before I retired after 35 years at the airline, 20 of them in management.
Gary F
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These are excuses, none of the above conditions are valid reasons people become obese. Weight loss is often very important for health reasons. This type of reasoning allows some to avoid lifestyle changes that are badly needed. I have struggled with my weight for decades. I admit that I am addicted to food and that is not a medical condition. I decided one day to eat a more healthful diet and it actually works.
I am aware that some people develop a disability mentality. They demand that others make all sorts of ridiculous accommodations. Other people with disabilities have a more positive attitude and overcome their limitations.
I don't mind walking. Henning probably doesn't either.
N747JB
Final Approach
N747JB
Final Approach
denverpilot
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I gotta say Henning, I had a family member who was beyond morbidly obese her whole life. A mixture of gall bladder and thyroid problems meant that it truly was impossible for her to maintain anything close to a normal weight. She ate like a bird. She often starved herself which didn't help, and actually probably hindered. She also had significant problems with mobility. Not even low impact exercise was possible for her. Additional swelling of extremities was also part of the overall "fat" effect as well as significant water retention. If there was any malady out there that could add to morbid obesity, she had it.
This person was not alive in modern times with some of the better drugs or bariatric procedures. Maybe some of those would have helped her if they were an option in her day.
So while I'm usually very of the mindset to say folk need to be responsible for themselves, there really are some folk who simply can't control their weight without radical surgery, and as she aged, those surgeries became impossible to pursue. They'd have killed her.
She had a placard and rightly so, by the way.
I get where you're coming from with the vast majority of morbidly obese folk who ate their way there. Just a reminder that not everyone did.
Gary F
Final Approach
What kind of bird? I hear this all the time but obese people clearly take in more energy than they burn. If you carefully audited her food intake then I bet you would find that she was taking in a lot of calories. Heavy people have a higher basal metabolic rate than thin people. As hard as they try to convince me otherwise, the laws of thermodynamics still apply to everybody. I agree that some people will not be able to control their food intake.
Gary F
Final Approach
Some of those with disabilities have a strong sense of entitlement and wallow in pity while others deal with their problems more constructively.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-bionic-hands-appears-Katie-Couric-show.html
This shows what can be accomplished if a disabled person has adequate support and a positive attitude. We must provide those who were injured serving this country at least as much assistance as this woman has received.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-bionic-hands-appears-Katie-Couric-show.html
This shows what can be accomplished if a disabled person has adequate support and a positive attitude. We must provide those who were injured serving this country at least as much assistance as this woman has received.
I have 2 mottos that I live by…
“Adversity doesn't build character… it reveals it”
“We don't often get to choose the life we are given… but we do get to choose how we live it”
denverpilot
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The vast majority of her size was a condition that triggered massive water retention. It looked a lot like fat from a distance but in her last year of life even with modern prescription diuretics her skin would literally weep water under some circumstances. This mainly affected her legs. Her upper torso and especially arms were often little more than skin and bones while from her waist down was huge. The most mobility she had was slowly with a walker for at least the last 20 years of her life and confined to standing up and moving to a power chair the last two or three. No doubt there was fat, but her shape was unique. Take the rotund little old last image, shrunk her upper torso and make it skinny, and make the legs rounder.
Laws of thermodynamics I understand, but no one ever saw her out eat anyone else at the table but she outweighed all of us by a factor of a little less than 3x.
I'm sure nowadays they would have handled the gall bladder and thyroid issues very very differently and have gotten to a better root cause. She had herself convinced it was her personal problem she didn't want to "bother" anyone with. Much less a busy Doctor seeing people with. "Real problems," as she would have put it.
Gary F
Final Approach
There are several types of edema including lymphedema but that is usually limited to an arm or one or both legs. The other types of edema are most always the result of heart failure or low albumin level (usually as the result of kidney disease). Generalized edema can usually be managed so that someone does not appear obese. Obesity often coexists with edema. When someone appears obese, 99% of the time they are obese. Your relative may be the exception, can't say without seeing her.
I don't mean to be judgmental. I have struggled with my weight for decades. Two years ago I met the definition for obesity until I lost 60 lbs. If I don't watch it I could be there again in a few years. The other day my calorie target was 1000 but I stumbled onto a pot luck lunch and exceeded it by about 4,000 calories. I did much better the next day but it is a constant struggle. One of my medical professors referred to obesity as "malignant hyperphagia".
These medical causes count for a minuscule portion of a percent of the morbidly obese and still does not exclude them from exercise.
Gary F
Final Approach
A medical condition might prevent significant exercise but it will not prevent them from eating fewer calories.
The problem is that our energy needs tend to decrease over time but our appetite continues to increase. Metabolism slows and people are usually less able to exercise due to multiple medical issues but we keep eating as much as we did when we were younger. Excess intake is stored as fat.
I have many morbidly obese patients who claim they eat very little which simply can't be the case.