Direction of Departure Turns

Palmpilot

Palmpilot

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Richard Palm
In the "Grrrrrrr (Student Checkride)" thread the following appreared in a quote of AIM 4-3-2:

6.If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude.
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I find myself wondering if restricting one's departures to either a straight out or a 45 in the direction of the pattern actually serves any safety purpose. It's a voluntary restriction, since a departure turn opposite the pattern is not prohibited in 91.126(b), which only prescribes the direction of turns "when approaching to land."

What do people think? Should the reference to direction of turns in this AIM paragraph be deleted?
 
Yes. It is a dumb suggestion, and one that I do not follow. I turn on course.
 
That's my feeling too. For one thing, turning away from the pattern takes one away from the largest concentration of airplanes.
 
Palmpilot said:
In the "Grrrrrrr (Student Checkride)" thread the following appreared in a quote of AIM 4-3-2:

I find myself wondering if restricting one's departures to either a straight out or a 45 in the direction of the pattern actually serves any safety purpose. It's a voluntary restriction, since a departure turn opposite the pattern is not prohibited in 91.126(b), which only prescribes the direction of turns "when approaching to land."

What do people think? Should the reference to direction of turns in this AIM paragraph be deleted?
Click to expand...

If I was in charge, maybe it would be deleted.

But I'm not, so the AIM recommendations are taught as what they are -- the FAA's guidance on the best way to conduct business.

But the AIM is not regulatory.
 
SkyHog said:
Yes. It is a dumb suggestion, and one that I do not follow. I turn on course.
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I generally turn on course once I've climbed above the pattern; if that means I fly the pattern a little ways around first, that doesn't bother me. Once I'm 500 feet above pattern altitude, all is fair game.
 
dmccormack said:
...the AIM recommendations are taught as what they are -- the FAA's guidance on the best way to conduct business.
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I think I'd call it the recommended way, not necessarily the best way, which can change with circumstances.
But the AIM is not regulatory.
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While that's true, much of the AIM is based on the FAR's, so a deviation from the AIM may also be a deviation from the FAR's. For example, compare the section in the AIM on lost comm (Section 6-4) with 91.185. Also, deviations may be viewed as careless/reckless (in violation of 91.13) if your deviant procedure compromises safety. However, I've yet to see an enforcement action based on turning the "wrong" way after takeoff as long as it didn't result in a 91.111 "too close" or 91.113 "right of way" violation.
 
jmaynard said:
I generally turn on course once I've climbed above the pattern; if that means I fly the pattern a little ways around first, that doesn't bother me. Once I'm 500 feet above pattern altitude, all is fair game.
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Climbing above TPA will remaining in the pattern can result in a conflict with a heavy/jet aircraft flying their standard pattern which is 500 above the light plane pattern. This is published at many airports. You also may confuse the plane behind you who's remaining in the pattern (remember, not everyone at a nontowered airport has a radio) If you're going to keep climbing, it's usually better to depart the pattern before climbing above TPA.
 
Ron Levy said:
Climbing above TPA will remaining in the pattern can result in a conflict with a heavy/jet aircraft flying their standard pattern which is 500 above the light plane pattern. This is published at many airports. You also may confuse the plane behind you who's remaining in the pattern (remember, not everyone at a nontowered airport has a radio) If you're going to keep climbing, it's usually better to depart the pattern before climbing above TPA.
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Good point. Of course jets rarely fail to use the radio so if you're paying attention it shouldn't be hard to avoid them. And climbing out of the pattern is something I reserve for times when I'm the only one in the vicinity.
 
IMHO, it doesn't work as a standardized procedure any better than the 45-degree downwind entry. Even less people are aware of the recommended departure than the entry (I'd forgotten that one myself). You just have to look, and talk and listen if you have a radio.

When I call my takeoff, I call my course direction ("departing southwest" or whatever). If other traffic does not have a radio, they'd better not just be looking at the extended centerline or "on a 45" on either side, that's just dumb.

I do wait to turn until I'm above TPA, though, unless I'm heading off the upwind side of the pattern. I see no need to add traffic to the pattern, then fly right off towards all those 45-degree arrivals. :D
I don't usually mix it up with jets, but yes, that's another great reason to not climb out of the pattern, even if you're changing heading (jets usually fly a little wider, too).
My overall philosophy with departures is to just get the hell out of there, with of course a sharp lookout and not cutting through the pattern (even the crosswind) if possible.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I think I'd call it the recommended way, not necessarily the best way, which can change with circumstances.
While that's true, much of the AIM is based on the FAR's, so a deviation from the AIM may also be a deviation from the FAR's. For example, compare the section in the AIM on lost comm (Section 6-4) with 91.185. Also, deviations may be viewed as careless/reckless (in violation of 91.13) if your deviant procedure compromises safety. However, I've yet to see an enforcement action based on turning the "wrong" way after takeoff as long as it didn't result in a 91.111 "too close" or 91.113 "right of way" violation.
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If everyone followed the AIM guidance in the vast majority of circumstances that do not require special procedures, pilot behavior around the pattern, on the radio, in the air, and rolling around on the ground would be predictable.

So when Pilot A arrives at vacation airport for the first time, she can enter a left hand pattern at 1000' AGL in a way that doesn't require ballet-like coordination with every bird within 5 miles.

Which would be a vast improvement over the current situation where too many pilots are above the nonsense meant for others, thereby not announcing position in the pattern, flying completely unpredictable patterns, or clogging up 122.8 with endless announcements of every turn from the hangar to the fuel point.
 
Ron Levy said:
For example, compare the section in the AIM on lost comm (Section 6-4) with 91.185. Also, deviations may be viewed as careless/reckless (in violation of 91.13) if your deviant procedure compromises safety.
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...and so the pilot deviation would be noted and acted upon IAW CFR 91.185.

The AIM might be referenced, but the enforcement action would be based on the CFR.

91.12 is the catch-all for any behavior not unambiguously codified.
 
Ron Levy said:
While that's true, much of the AIM is based on the FAR's, so a deviation from the AIM may also be a deviation from the FAR's. For example, compare the section in the AIM on lost comm (Section 6-4) with 91.185.
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From AIM 6-4:

"Whether two-way communications failure constitutes an emergency depends on the circumstances, and in any event, it is a determination made by the pilot. 14 CFR Section 91.3(b) authorizes a pilot to deviate from any rule in Subparts A and B to the extent required to meet an emergency."
 
roncachamp said:
From AIM 6-4:

"Whether two-way communications failure constitutes an emergency depends on the circumstances, and in any event, it is a determination made by the pilot. 14 CFR Section 91.3(b) authorizes a pilot to deviate from any rule in Subparts A and B to the extent required to meet an emergency."
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One of my favorite parts of the AIM!
 
SkyHog said:
Yes. It is a dumb suggestion, and one that I do not follow. I turn on course.
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I hate those guys that "turn on course" after departure from an uncontrolled airport, and many do before reaching TPA. :mad3:

And they always tend to depart from the "right" runway and make a "left" turn right in front of my left runway departure with a glider in tow. :yikes:

"Guns Guns Guns"
 
BillTIZ said:
I hate those guys that "turn on course" after departure from an uncontrolled airport, and many do before reaching TPA. :mad3:

And they always tend to depart from the "right" runway and make a "left" turn right in front of my left runway departure with a glider in tow. :yikes:

"Guns Guns Guns"
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I think you have a good point in regard to parallel runways.
 
Palmpilot said:
I find myself wondering if restricting one's departures to either a straight out or a 45 in the direction of the pattern actually serves any safety purpose.
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Well, it does set you up for a head-to-head encounter with traffic inbound on the 45. Gives you practice with see-and-avoid. :yikes: At busy uncontrolled fields I don't like that inbound quadrant at all. Unless a downwind departure is called for my inclination is to head straight out a couple of miles before worrying about turning on course.
 
He Joe! Are you going to update your location now <g>. Others might think you're off the coast somewhere!

Best,

Dave
 
Palmpilot said:
What do people think? Should the reference to direction of turns in this AIM paragraph be deleted?
Click to expand...

In all these years I've never had an issue in following the AIM recommendations when possible or advisable. It gives some common ground and makes things a little more predictable.

I've always pretty much used 3 departures from the traffic
pattern .. straight out ... the aforementioned 45 on the traffic
pattern side .. or occasionally a downwind departure if I'm going the opposite
way (although .. like staying in the pattern .. that one demands a
little extra vigilance because of potential incoming traffic. If I'm going
to be departing to the non pattern side .. I go straight out a couple
miles before I make that turn.

RT
 
brcase said:
You don't fly C-150's at 7000 foot density alititude do you? :)

Brian
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Nope. Last time I folded myself into a C-150 was never. But I did fly a 180hp Cherokee out of 11,400 DA strip one day.
 
RogerT said:
In all these years I've never had an issue in following the AIM recommendations when possible or advisable. It gives some common ground and makes things a little more predictable.
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I guess predictability is one reason for putting recommendations in the AIM, but the question is, what should those recommendations be? It seems to me that it would be safer to separate departing traffic from approaching traffic, by having the former fly on the non-pattern side, and on diverging courses.
 
Palmpilot said:
I guess predictability is one reason for putting recommendations in the AIM, but the question is, what should those recommendations be? It seems to me that it would be safer to separate departing traffic from approaching traffic, by having the former fly on the non-pattern side, and on diverging courses.
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It does that doesn't it. If you enter the pattern midfield from 45 degrees and depart straight out or on a 45 degree turn the arriving traffic has a clear view of the departing traffic and believes that they will depart out and away from the downwind and base legs. Worst case is a turn towards at 45 degrees but the aircraft should be about a 2 minute climb to TPA and about 3 miles from the departure end of the runway when he makes the turn on the opposite track. This is also outside the upwind leg for traffic remaining in the pattern.
 
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