Difficult night

[Aztec Driver]

I'm sure, in your own mind, you believe that. But get real. If your bleary eyes had misread your altimeter by 1,000 feet some dark rainy night and you killed a bunch of people--do you really think the FAA would have let your boss off the hook (you'll have been too dead to prosecute)? C'mon.

dtuuri

But his bleary eyes did not miss the altimeter setting.

And yes, the FAA would let his boss off the hook, because there was no FAR broken. His boss, like you when you "ran your corporate crews like a 135 operation," may not have known what it is that the employee did on his scheduled time off.

I expect my employees to be capable of performing the jobs I give them safely and legally. I have one employee currently who is working for me for his 9 hours, then working on his and his friends equipment until 3-4 am every evening for the past two weeks. His job involves a lot of driving and interacting with customers. He very well could crash and hurt himself and others just as simply as anyone could an aircraft. More so, probably, because driving is more of a mundane task than piloting an aircraft. I simply ask him if he feels well enough to get the job done. If he answers in the affirmative, we are good to go. I trust he will tell me if he doesn't have the ability to get the job done safely.

He completes his tasks, hasn't crashed into anyone, and keeps the customer's happy. I have nothing to complain to him about. Some people can operate better than others on limited sleep.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Let me ask you, "Are flight attendants' rest requirements more stringent than pilots'?"

Here's an interpretation that, if your ideas on the matter are accurate, would certainly seem to say that:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...nterpretations/data/interps/2005/kolander.rtf​

dtuuri

....snip

[FONT=&quot]rest period is defined as "the period free of all restraint or duty for a certificate holder conducting domestic, flag, or supplemental operations and free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise." [/FONT]

snip

[FONT=&quot]This provision makes the operator responsible for ensuring that a flight attendant is scheduled for and receives the scheduled rest period. The FAA recognizes that how the flight attendant utilizes this rest period cannot be regulated. [/FONT]
From your own links.

So, once again, the operation was completely and totally legal as far as FAA is concerned.

The fact that you apparently need much more rest to function clearly does not mean that everyone does. Most people who cannot function on limited sleep do not engage in activities that would interrupt their sleep patterns.
I can and do understand this. You are entitled to your opinions. They are, however, just your opinions.

I cannot regulate how my employees spend their time off anymore than you could in your "corporate flight department." If they do not break the law (or not caught doing so), I may have no idea what they are doing if they choose not to tell me.

The facts remain, the charter I performed, and many others perform on a daily basis, was legal and legitimate, I, while not being totally fresh from just having slept, was awake and alert enough to properly execute the mission, the mission was completed to everyone's satisfaction, and only you are seeing problems where there are none.

In your Utopian world, there are no people that have two jobs, either because they need them to survive, or because they enjoy what they do. I live in the real world, like most others here, and I am lucky enough to have a job with enough flexibility to do the other job that I enjoy part-time. I like the real world much better, thank you.

 

[Aztec Driver]

By your reckoning, you'd be 'legal' even if he called at 11:00 PM just as you're pulling the covers over your head and said, "Be at the airport at midnight for a 14 hour day." But you'd be 'illegal' if it was your boss's hangar you were working on all day, right?

Don't you feel silly trying to make that case?

dtuuri

Yes, he would be legal. And that is the only definition needed. If he doesn't feel rested enough to do the flight, it is his responsibility to decline.

As was my right as well.

 

[Aztec Driver]

I did have good luck flying professionally, as a matter of fact. I flew for top-drawer air carriers from Executive Jet Aviation to United Airlines and I even set up a 135 air taxi operation, writing the LOC (letter of compliance) all by myself. But this isn't about my credibility, it's about common sense and the FAA's mindset. I also ran a corporate flight department and voluntarily applied 135 crew rest standards to all passenger flights for nearly 20 years because experience proved to me it was the right thing to do.

dtuuri

And in your "135 air taxi operation" or your "corporate flight department," how many of your flights were calls in the middle of the night for immediate charters? How many of your flights were even for the same day flights?

That is where the biggest difference is.

 

[Ted]

I'm sure, in your own mind, you believe that. But get real. If your bleary eyes had misread your altimeter by 1,000 feet some dark rainy night and you killed a bunch of people--do you really think the FAA would have let your boss off the hook (you'll have been too dead to prosecute)? C'mon.

dtuuri

They probably would have done an investigation just as much as if I screwed up an instrument approach after 10 hours of sleep just before the flight, killed everyone, and left me too dead to prosecute, or if an engine failed in the Chieftain on a hot day takeoff near gross right after the gear came up and I crashed into the ridges that surrounded our base, also killing everyone.

But fortunately, these are rhetorical questions since I'm not dead yet. And since I no longer work there, it won't matter anyway.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Nothing you have linked or said changes the legal definition of "rest" as defined by the FAA. You have your idea of what "rest" should be, and it is not at all bad, but it is not accurate.

 

[dtuuri]

....snip

[FONT=&quot]rest period is defined as "the period free of all restraint or duty for a certificate holder conducting domestic, flag, or supplemental operations and free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise." [/FONT]

snip

[FONT=&quot]This provision makes the operator responsible for ensuring that a flight attendant is scheduled for and receives the scheduled rest period. The FAA recognizes that how the flight attendant utilizes this rest period cannot be regulated. [/FONT]
From your own links.

So, once again, the operation was completely and totally legal as far as FAA is concerned.

Why didn't you include the entire quotes rather than cherry-picking them? Afraid of something? Let's see how the entire passages change things. I'll highlight the portions you selectively lifted:

The agency has previously said that the nature of rest is the same, regardless of the operation or the subpart under which a flight assignment is performed. Rest must satisfy three conditions in order to qualify as a rest period: It must be 1) a continuous period of time, 2) determined prospectively, and 3) during which the crewmember is free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from present responsibility from work should the occasion arise. See Oct 29. 2002 Letter to James W. Johnson, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division [No. 2003-6] (copy enclosed); August 5, 2004 Letter to Don Treichler, from James W. Whitlow, Deputy Chief Counsel (copy enclosed); and Dec. 9, 1999 Letter to James R. Knight, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel [2001-1] (copy enclosed).

Under section 121.467(a) of the flight attendant duty period limitations and rest requirements regulations, rest period is defined as "the period free of all restraint or duty for a certificate holder conducting domestic, flag, or supplemental operations and free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise." The agency has not previously addressed, via a letter of interpretation, whether this definition of rest is similar to the definition of rest in the cited interpretations.

As written, the definition of rest period in section 121.467(a) appears to focus on criterion number 3 of the nature of rest (i.e., a period "during which a crewmember is free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise"). The regulatory history of section 121.467 provides insight into the FAA drafters' intent about the nature of the section 121.467(a) rest period. The Preamble to the final rule notes that "this final rule requires that a flight attendant `be given' a scheduled rest period. This provision makes the operator responsible for ensuring that a flight attendant is scheduled for and receives the scheduled rest period. The FAA recognizes that how the flight attendant utilizes this rest period cannot be regulated. Requiring operators to schedule rest periods ensures that flight attendants know in advance when rest periods will occur and that they will be of a specified duration."​

The definition you quoted from Part 121, according to the Chief Counsel, "appears to focus on criterion number 3 of the nature of rest". So, the interp goes on to state:

We believe that the cited regulatory history supports the view that the FAA drafters' intended that a flight attendant's rest period satisfy not only criterion number 3 of the nature of rest (a period "during which the crewmember is free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise), but also criteria numbers 1 and 2 ("a continuous period of time" that is "determined prospectively"). Thus, we conclude that the Agency's definition of rest stated, in various legal interpretations, also applies to flight attendants.​

dtuuri

 

[SbestCFII]

It's relative. She was incorrect in saying, "these planes can't fly in this weather, it's not a safe airplane, it's too small, it can't fit the cooler chest, I hope it crashes so my family can sue everybody...yada yada yada..." as well as thoroughly unprofessional for someone in her position. PAX are required to follow crew-member instructions. next time, it's "Please sit down, fasten your safety restraints, and prepare for departure or get the hell out of the plane." I certainly wouldn't want someone like that involved in my medical care.

 

[N801BH]

It's relative. .... I hope it crashes so my family can sue everybody...yada yada yada..." ....

As soon as that came out of her mouth she would sittin on the ramp on her ass.....

 

[weilke]

As soon as that came out of her mouth she would sittin on the ramp on her ass.....

And after you return from the flight without the cargo, you would be out of a job.

I wouldn't have tried to convince her to board though. Just sit there, be your professional friendly self and wait until she comes to her mind.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Why didn't you include the entire quotes rather than cherry-picking them? Afraid of something? Let's see how the entire passages change things. I'll highlight the portions you selectively lifted:

The agency has previously said that the nature of rest is the same, regardless of the operation or the subpart under which a flight assignment is performed. Rest must satisfy three conditions in order to qualify as a rest period: It must be 1) a continuous period of time, 2) determined prospectively, and 3) during which the crewmember is free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from present responsibility from work should the occasion arise. See Oct 29. 2002 Letter to James W. Johnson, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division [No. 2003-6] (copy enclosed); August 5, 2004 Letter to Don Treichler, from James W. Whitlow, Deputy Chief Counsel (copy enclosed); and Dec. 9, 1999 Letter to James R. Knight, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel [2001-1] (copy enclosed).

Under section 121.467(a) of the flight attendant duty period limitations and rest requirements regulations, rest period is defined as "the period free of all restraint or duty for a certificate holder conducting domestic, flag, or supplemental operations and free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise." The agency has not previously addressed, via a letter of interpretation, whether this definition of rest is similar to the definition of rest in the cited interpretations.

As written, the definition of rest period in section 121.467(a) appears to focus on criterion number 3 of the nature of rest (i.e., a period "during which a crewmember is free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise"). The regulatory history of section 121.467 provides insight into the FAA drafters' intent about the nature of the section 121.467(a) rest period. The Preamble to the final rule notes that "this final rule requires that a flight attendant `be given' a scheduled rest period. This provision makes the operator responsible for ensuring that a flight attendant is scheduled for and receives the scheduled rest period. The FAA recognizes that how the flight attendant utilizes this rest period cannot be regulated. Requiring operators to schedule rest periods ensures that flight attendants know in advance when rest periods will occur and that they will be of a specified duration."​

The definition you quoted from Part 121, according to the Chief Counsel, "appears to focus on criterion number 3 of the nature of rest". So, the interp goes on to state:

We believe that the cited regulatory history supports the view that the FAA drafters' intended that a flight attendant's rest period satisfy not only criterion number 3 of the nature of rest (a period "during which the crewmember is free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise), but also criteria numbers 1 and 2 ("a continuous period of time" that is "determined prospectively"). Thus, we conclude that the Agency's definition of rest stated, in various legal interpretations, also applies to flight attendants.​

dtuuri

Okay, please point out what I am obviously too blind to see. Please show me where it says anything other than "free from duty from the certificate holder?"

It does not say "free from all activity and lay your sorry a$$ on the couch and don't move."

My rest period was the preceding 10 hours of time, at which time I was not held to work by the certificate holder, nor obligated to them in any way, it was continuous and most assuredly prospectively determined. I also had more than 10 hours after the flight, which was also continuous, prospectively determined and certainly was not held to any expectations of duty by the certificate holder.

You still haven't found anything to support your definition because it does not exist.

Give it a "rest." (As per your definition of "rest."

 

[Aztec Driver]

And after you return from the flight without the cargo, you would be out of a job.

I wouldn't have tried to convince her to board though. Just sit there, be your professional friendly self and wait until she comes to her mind.

That's pretty much what I did.

I had another doctor complain and fuss about "these little airplanes" before, but he was a bit better about it, and for as much turbulence as he had to endure, he had a bit more reason to hate it.

One of the big problems with these kinds of trips is the very nature of organ harvesting. Since a lot of them come from accident victims, usually because of bad weather accidents, it stands to reason they will be flown when the weather isn't so great.

I really enjoy the work, though, and it serves a really noble purpose, much like the Angel Flights.

 

[weilke]

My rest period was the preceding 10 hours of time, at which time I was not held to work by the certificate holder, nor obligated to them in any way, it was continuous and most assuredly prospectively determined. I also had more than 10 hours after the flight, which was also continuous, prospectively determined and certainly was not held to any expectations of duty by the certificate holder.

Well, I dont think the definitions as they stand make much sense. You can drive a city bus or work as a cop for 10hrs and then go on duty for the certificate holder for 14hrs.

 

[N801BH]

And after you return from the flight without the cargo, you would be out of a job.

.....

There are alot of other jobs out there where you don't get subjected to a crazy woman wanting to die so her kin can get rich..

 

[dtuuri]

Okay, please point out what I am obviously too blind to see. Please show me where it says anything other than "free from duty from the certificate holder?"

Sure, with my emphasis:

"We believe that the cited regulatory history supports the view that the FAA drafters' intended that a flight attendant's rest period satisfy not only criterion number 3 of the nature of rest (a period "during which the crewmember is free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise), but also criteria numbers 1 and 2 ("a continuous period of time" that is "determined prospectively"). Thus, we conclude that the Agency's definition of rest stated, in various legal interpretations, also applies to flight attendants."
​

My rest period was the preceding 10 hours of time, at which time I was not held to work by the certificate holder, nor obligated to them in any way, it was continuous and most assuredly prospectively determined.

If it was "prospectively determined", why didn't you say when the rest period was scheduled to begin and when to end when I asked?

You say you aren't obligated in any way? Are you an employee or not? If your self-assessment of fatigue is the only thing that matters, why does the FAA need crew rest rules at all? All that's needed, if that's the case, is to let newbie eager-beaver charter pilots decide for themselves if they want the trip. "Rest period? Naw! Send me in coach!" How'd it be if NFL coaches played the players who wanted to play the most instead of the ones that played the best?

You still haven't found anything to support your definition because it does not exist.

I've given you the benefit of my considerable experience, compared to yours. Also the opinions of the First Circuit Court of Appeals and the FAA's Chief Counsel in several interpretation letters (there's plenty more too).

Before I check out of this thread I want to say that it interested me because about 12 years ago I was asked by a charter company to render my opinion of how many pilots it would take to crew an organ-harvest service utilizing a two-pilot business jet 24/7. If I remember correctly, I came up with about eight full-time pilots. That seemed high even to me, so I called a reputable out-of-state air ambulance service and asked the director of operations for his opinion too, without saying the number I arrived at. He came up with the same number, give or take one pilot. Allowing for typical organ harvesting flight times, days off, comp time for holidays, vacations, recurrent training, other duties for the chief pilot and sick days--that's what it takes to staff up properly. But nobody says you have to be in the business of taking pop-up trips 24/7 in the first place.

dtuuri

 

[Aztec Driver]

Well, the benefit of your "considerable experience" apparently does not include the literal understanding of the FAR's. Speak to any on-demand service about their practices and you will be enlightened.

I will certainly concede that the INTENT of the regs for that area is for the crewmember to be well rested. And I agree that would definitely be advantageous. In your world, that must be a standard. In the real world, things work a little differently.

Good day, sir, you are obviously much more experienced and knowledgeable than I. I concede to your greatness.

 

[weilke]

Good day, sir, you are obviously much more experienced and knowledgeable than I. I concede to your greatness.

Ask him about VFR pattern entries .

 

[dtuuri]

Ask him about VFR pattern entries .

Heh. I predict a lot more will see the light after the upcoming tower closings.

dtuuri