Different beliefs and how they're handled at PoA

poadeleted3

Pattern Altitude
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Re: Gay Pilots?

Dave Krall CFII said:
Here hear. Well said.

But it's just words. This site is not particularly welcoming to conservative viewpoints. Just watch what happens to my reputation after the last couple posts, which I feel are perfectly reasonable ones.

I've been made to feel welcome here for the most part, but I'll bet that changes if I express my beliefs too openly. We'll see, I suppose, but I'm still betting that the civility that people say they hope for only extends down one side of the street. By and large, I'll just talk about planes and ignore the social issues. Should have just ignored this thread.
 
Re: Gay Pilots?

Joe Williams said:
But it's just words. This site is not particularly welcoming to conservative viewpoints. Just watch what happens to my reputation after the last couple posts, which I feel are perfectly reasonable ones.

I've been made to feel welcome here for the most part, but I'll bet that changes if I express my beliefs too openly. We'll see, I suppose, but I'm still betting that the civility that people say they hope for only extends down one side of the street. By and large, I'll just talk about planes and ignore the social issues. Should have just ignored this thread.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I welcome a diversity of viewpoints here, Joe. And I would like to see Agatha and Todd find their way over here, too.

IMHO there are too many folks on both sides of the aisle in this country that want to "impose" their views on others without listening to what the others have to say. I do not like it when folks "trash" each other, however.
 
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Re: Gay Pilots?

First of all, Joe, thanks for posting these concerns. I welcome them. I may move this discussion to Site feedback, and out of this thread, just to keep the thread itself on topic.

Joe Williams said:
But it's just words. This site is not particularly welcoming to conservative viewpoints.
Well, I think you woujld be more accurate in saying that "some of the members of this site are" not welcoming...because a person's politics don't play a role in how this site runs. The Rules of Conduct do.

Just watch what happens to my reputation after the last couple posts, which I feel are perfectly reasonable ones.
I'll be very interested in seeing what happens. The reputation system in use here is something fairly new to me, and to a large extent is still experimental in my mind. The reputation system is a reflection of how the community of PoA has reacted to your posts, and as it is a fairly new concept for me, I tend to keep an eye on what goes on with reputation. Mainly because I still retain a healthy level of cyncicism about how it will work in the long run. (I do see that people are much quicker to give negative reputation for posts they don't like than positive reputation for posts they do...so who knows, maybe everyone will end up in the red in the long run...) I dunno - I may "chuck" the whole reputation system in the long run if it turns out to be serving only as a means to show disapproval. Its supposed to be for both. (I do know that you've gotten your fair share of positive marks, though - and while I wont disclose reputation information more than is already given - you'ld be surprised at where some of it has come from... :) )

In any event, don't take reputation too seriously. Take the RoC seriously. :)

I've been made to feel welcome here for the most part, but I'll bet that changes if I express my beliefs too openly.
If a poster express their beliefs and opinions as just that - THEIR opinions and THEIR beliefs - as opposed to posting them as attacks upon other people, then we shouldn't have any problems. It's when individuals start attacking other individuals because they believe differently that trouble develops - and I give you my word that *if* flame wars start, the management will be dousing the fires by dealing equally with people on both sides of whatever the issue is.

We'll see, I suppose, but I'm still betting that the civility that people say they hope for only extends down one side of the street.
As I said - worry about the rules of conduct, not reputation. I don't care if its a 1st time poser or a member of the Mangement Council - I don't care if we're diametrically opposed on every issue or if we're in a vulcan mind meld like agreement - the rules apply equally.

As testament to the sincerity I can only offer up my years of experience in running larger forums. At the risk of sounding boastful, I know what it takes to make these rules work - I learned the hard way! Heck, even I'm prone to occasionally losing my patience with someone - it happens - but when I do, I go, I chill out, I come back, and I apologize, and we move on. I never use the administrative powers I have to punish someone because I disagree with them. I only use them when a person deliberately wants to disrupt the community (porn, trolling, spam, etc.) and then its never vindictive.
 
This sub-discussion has been split out of the original thread (Gay Pilots) and moved to a more appropriate forum for open discussion.
 
Re: Gay Pilots?

Joe Williams said:
But it's just words. This site is not particularly welcoming to conservative viewpoints. Just watch what happens to my reputation after the last couple posts, which I feel are perfectly reasonable ones.
I don't think there have been enough conservative/liberal viewpoints expressed to say if this site is not particularly welcoming to conservative posts. That's my personal take, anyway.

The reputation points are one user's 'feelings' toward another user's posts. Nothing to do with management. We don't control any element of it, aside from simply making it available.

The idea behind PoA wasn't as an av-only discussion forum. It wasn't a conservative 'stronghold' board either. It's simply a spot for flying enthusiasists to gather and discuss things with a written set of Rules of Conduct dictating what we (as management) and you (as users) agree to as civil behavior.

Joe, you have a colorful history at the other board. Not so here. As far as we're all concerned, everyone starts clean here. Post what you want from whatever view you want as long as you follow the Rules of Conduct. That's it as far as management is concerned. Reputation points are between you and the readers of your posts.

And just a quick FYI on how management works: unless it's an obvious violation, we don't make unilateral decisions. Hit the Bad Post button and we, as management, discuss the post in question and proceed from there. We might freeze the thread for a period of time (to avoid an escalation of emotions) while we decide. We feel that hearing each other's thoughts on a particular post is better than one person's interpretation of the RoC. Our own little version of checks and balances. It's already seen a little action and I think it works well.
 
Re: Gay Pilots?

I think we pay too much attention to "reputation points". I may be out in left field, but I can't see Joe's "reputation points". I think only Joe can see it. I know Greebo can see it if he wants to, but he's got his plate FULL. The moderators of this board are commited to the rules, and I don't see "viewpoint" anywhere in the rules. The readers, however can silently comment however they please....it's private AFAIK.
 
Re: Gay Pilots?

Greebo said:
If a poster express their beliefs and opinions as just that - THEIR opinions and THEIR beliefs - as opposed to posting them as attacks upon other people, then we shouldn't have any problems. It's when individuals start attacking other individuals because they believe differently that trouble develops - and I give you my word that *if* flame wars start, the management will be dousing the fires by dealing equally with people on both sides of whatever the issue is.

Using my experience as a negotiator, I would say this statement is key. Very few people take offense when belief/position statements start with "I". Statements are often interpreted to be attacks when they start with "You".

We need the ability to openly state our beliefs without causing offense.
 
Re: Gay Pilots?

bbchien said:
I think we pay too much attention to "reputation points". I may be out in left field, but I can't see Joe's "reputation points". I think only Joe can see it. I know Greebo can see it if he wants to, but he's got his plate FULL. The moderators of this board are commited to the rules, and I don't see "viewpoint" anywhere in the rules. The readers, however can silently comment however they please....it's private AFAIK.

I'm actually interested to see what happens re: my reputation after I made some comments that some may see as being as "accepting" as they would like. Thus far the only negative hit I've had came from the morbid thoughts thread when someone didn't like me mentioning religion as a means of handling grief.

I do know that I've made use of the "report bad post" button once, and had an issue handled in a manner I thought was fair, with a minimal amount of public fuss.

I don't want my comments to be seen as a slam against this board as a whole in any way. I've stated before I like this board and the people on it. I do intend, though, to keep to aviation for the most part, if for no other reason than that I am an emotional but not skilled debater.
 
Re: Gay Pilots?

Joe Williams said:
I do intend, though, to keep to aviation for the most part, if for no other reason than that I am an emotional but not skilled debater.
MEGA-DITTOS from here, too! :D
 
I don't think there have been enough conservative/liberal viewpoints expressed to say if this site is not particularly welcoming to conservative posts. That's my personal take, anyway.

It's just one person's opinion, but with the recent threads discussing the liberal/conservative split, I'm a bit worried that this site could degenerate fast.

I hope I'm wrong, and I trust in the staff, but I'm a bit worried.
 
MSmith said:
It's just one person's opinion, but with the recent threads discussing the liberal/conservative split, I'm a bit worried that this site could degenerate fast.

I hope I'm wrong, and I trust in the staff, but I'm a bit worried.
Please define "degenerate".

We've never said no one couldn't post conservative/liberal viewpoints here or debate them. We've just outlined Rules of Conduct that we'll follow in those debates (or any post, really). The RoC will be enforced.

And we're adamant about that last.
 
My personal definition of degenerate is:

1. Lots of name-calling and generally hurt feelings (and attempts to cause such hurt)
2. A forum that is primarily political.

I'll be honest - I'm not interested in reading a bunch of conservatives talk to each other about how terrible liberals are. This is an AVIATION forum, not a political forum. That's one reason that I rarely read the "other board".

Once the politics to aviation ratio passes 1:1, I'm gone. (not a threat by the way - just reality) At that point it's a political forum with an aviation name. Until now, it's been very low (like 1:50).

Another aviation forum that I frequent has a strict no-politics rule. It's not as busy as this one, but it's a lot less likely to get heated.
 
A question regarding the reputation ratings: When I get good marks, they are green. When I got a bad mark for having the temerity to mention religion as one way to handle grief, it was grey. Now, someone didn't like what I had to say in the "Gay Pilots" thread, and the mark is red. When I've given reputation, I only saw two choices, so I'm trying to figure out where 3 colors came from?
 
Joe Williams said:
A question regarding the reputation ratings: When I get good marks, they are green. When I got a bad mark for having the temerity to mention religion as one way to handle grief, it was grey. Now, someone didn't like what I had to say in the "Gay Pilots" thread, and the mark is red. When I've given reputation, I only saw two choices, so I'm trying to figure out where 3 colors came from?
Green = approve
Red = disapprove
Gray = disregard because the person giving it didn't have enough posts to contribute either way
 
Re: Gay Pilots?

It can be offensive NOT to comment on certain statements but, if someone takes offense at someone elses comment, so be it. It makes for more heated discussion. I don't want to be second guessing my opinion or watering down either my BS or extensive aeronautical knowledge to try to protect someone's feelings that I may not have even judged accurately.


bstratt said:
Using my experience as a negotiator, I would say this statement is key. Very few people take offense when belief/position statements start with "I". Statements are often interpreted to be attacks when they start with "You".

We need the ability to openly state our beliefs without causing offense.
 
Re: Gay Pilots?

Dave Krall CFII said:
It can be offensive NOT to comment on certain statements but, if someone takes offense at someone elses comment, so be it. It makes for more heated discussion. I don't want to be second guessing my opinion or watering down either my BS or extensive aeronautical knowledge to try to protect someone's feelings that I may not have even judged accurately.
You know the best way to avoid that? Ask.

Instead of jumping down someone's throat or simply ignoring the whole thing, simply say "This is what I understood you to say..." and voice your comment politely. If you misunderstood OR the original poster didn't do a good job writing out his/her thoughts, a conversation can go down in flames from something that turned out to be nothing more than a missing word or misconstrued thought. Not necessary.
 
Re: Gay Pilots?

Just my opinion, but from the posts you've made on PoA that I've read (and I haven't read all of them, of course), I'd say that you are being reasonable. When you say something along the lines of, "I am tolerant of this, but my religious beliefs tell me that this is wrong," you certainly are NOT spamming or trolling; rather, you are simply stating your view. I would hope that no one would hit report bad post on something like this, especially when your opinion along with other members' was specifically solicited.

Context and delivery; context and delivery.

Joe Williams said:
I'm actually interested to see what happens re: my reputation after I made some comments that some may see as being as "accepting" as they would like. Thus far the only negative hit I've had came from the morbid thoughts thread when someone didn't like me mentioning religion as a means of handling grief.

I do know that I've made use of the "report bad post" button once, and had an issue handled in a manner I thought was fair, with a minimal amount of public fuss.

I don't want my comments to be seen as a slam against this board as a whole in any way. I've stated before I like this board and the people on it. I do intend, though, to keep to aviation for the most part, if for no other reason than that I am an emotional but not skilled debater.
 
Brian Austin said:
Green = approve
Red = disapprove
Gray = disregard because the person giving it didn't have enough posts to contribute either way
What Brian said - you have no reputation power when you first join the forum, but you can still render an opinion about other people's posts. Only when you meet the minimum qualifications to have reputation power do your reputation votes have any effect.

See this thread for the details: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/showthread.php?t=57
 
Greebo said:
What Brian said - you have no reputation power when you first join the forum, but you can still render an opinion about other people's posts. Only when you meet the minimum qualifications to have reputation power do your reputation votes have any effect.

See this thread for the details: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/showthread.php?t=57
I never checked: is it retroactive? In other words, if I vote when I have low posts, then clear the hurdle, do all my old votes suddenly become legit?
 
Re: Gay Pilots?

Excellent points Brian.

Brian Austin said:
You know the best way to avoid that? Ask.

Instead of jumping down someone's throat or simply ignoring the whole thing, simply say "This is what I understood you to say..." and voice your comment politely. If you misunderstood OR the original poster didn't do a good job writing out his/her thoughts, a conversation can go down in flames from something that turned out to be nothing more than a missing word or misconstrued thought. Not necessary.
 
Brian Austin said:
I never checked: is it retroactive? In other words, if I vote when I have low posts, then clear the hurdle, do all my old votes suddenly become legit?
Nope. It is what it is, and the software never tells you directly how much power you have, I think.
 
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