Did we win or loose

[Tom-D]

http://www.eaa.org/news/2012/2012-03-15_win.asp

Do ADs apply to a home built aircraft that is 5 years old?

AS I read this:
10. AD COMPLIANCE. ADs are regulations issued under part 39. Therefore, no person may operate a product to which an AD applies, except in accordance with the requirements of that AD. Owners and operators should understand that to “operate” not only means piloting the aircraft, but also causing or authorizing the product to be used for the purpose of air navigation, with or without the right of legal control as owner, lessee, or otherwise. Compliance with Emergency ADs can be a problem for operators of leased aircraft because they may not be aware of the AD and safety may be jeopardized.

We are to comply with FAR 39, which has not changed.

ADs now apply to any aircraft that has an "N" number, because Part 39 says:
FAA's airworthiness directives are legally enforceable rules that apply to the following products: aircraft, aircraft engines, propellers, and appliances.

Part 39 does not omit any aircraft, engine or propeller.

 

[wanttaja]

Re: Did we win or lose

"Therefore, no person may operate a product to which an AD applies..."

The FAA retains its right to issue an AD that applies to non-type certificated aircraft, but paragraph 9 in the AC says that each AD must include an applicability statement. Unless that applicability statement specifically says otherwise, the AD does not apply to non-type certificated aircraft.

Before, whether an AD applied to a homebuilt was a matter of interpretation. The C-85 in my Fly Baby still carries its Continental data tag; there were those that argued that any ADs against the C-85 would also apply to me unless I removed that data tag. The policy change outlined in the AC says that isn't necessary.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Cap'n Jack]

If something becomes loose, I guess that would cause an AD to be issued.

 

[Tom-D]

Re: Did we win or lose

"Therefore, no person may operate a product to which an AD applies..."

The FAA retains its right to issue an AD that applies to non-type certificated aircraft, but paragraph 9 in the AC says that each AD must include an applicability statement. Unless that applicability statement specifically says otherwise, the AD does not apply to non-type certificated aircraft.

Before, whether an AD applied to a homebuilt was a matter of interpretation. The C-85 in my Fly Baby still carries its Continental data tag; there were those that argued that any ADs against the C-85 would also apply to me unless I removed that data tag. The policy change outlined in the AC says that isn't necessary.

Ron Wanttaja

Which carries regulatory authority? FAR PART 39 or the AC?

Where does Far 39 say any aircraft, engine or propeller is exempt?

Did anything really change? or is this smoke and mirrors from the FAA ?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Re: Did we win or lose

Which carries regulatory authority? FAR PART 39 or the AC?

Where does Far 39 say any aircraft, engine or propeller is exempt?

Did anything really change? or is this smoke and mirrors from the FAA ?

You mean 14 CFR 39?

 

[wanttaja]

Re: Did we win or lose

Which carries regulatory authority? FAR PART 39 or the AC?

Where does Far 39 say any aircraft, engine or propeller is exempt?

Did anything really change? or is this smoke and mirrors from the FAA ?

14CFR is regulatory, ACs set FAA policy on how to implement the regs. According to this new guidance, each AD must specifically say whether an AD applies to non TC'd aircraft or components. If it doesn't make such a statement, any attempt to violate someone for non-compliance for a homebuilt should easily be overturned.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Dan Thomas]

In the Canadian Aviation Regulations I see this:
Quote:
Division X — Airworthiness Directives

Application
521.426 This Division applies in respect of aeronautical products for which a design approval document has been issued or accepted by the Minister.

Unquote.

I went looking for a similar statement in the FARs and could find nothing.

A "Design Approval Document" would be a Type Certificate, or equivalent. A homebuilt doesn't have a TC, but most engines do.

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

Re: Did we win or lose

14CFR is regulatory, ACs set FAA policy on how to implement the regs. According to this new guidance, each AD must specifically say whether an AD applies to non TC'd aircraft or components. If it doesn't make such a statement, any attempt to violate someone for non-compliance for a homebuilt should easily be overturned.

Ron Wanttaja

how do you use a AC to get around a reg?

39.3 Definition of airworthiness directives.

FAA's airworthiness directives are legally enforceable rules that apply to the following products: aircraft, aircraft engines, propellers, and appliances.

how many times do you believe the FAA will exempt any product from a safety issue.

 

[wanttaja]

Re: Did we win or lose

how do you use a AC to get around a reg?

It's not "getting around a reg." The FAA retains the same authority it had before the issuance of the AC. They're merely establishing how they will exercise that authority.

how many times do you believe the FAA will exempt any product from a safety issue.

At least as often as they have done in the past. Again, 14CFR Part 39 hasn't changed. The AC just clarifies that an AD doesn't apply to a homebuilt unless the AD specifically says it does.

To answer your basic question, I think the FAA's clarification of policy is a "win". You apparently think otherwise. Please answer your own question, then: How does the AC mean that homebuilt owners lose?

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Tom-D]

Re: Did we win or lose

The AC just clarifies that an AD doesn't apply to a homebuilt unless the AD specifically says it does.

To answer your basic question, I think the FAA's clarification of policy is a "win". You apparently think otherwise. Please answer your own question, then: How does the AC mean that homebuilt owners lose?

Ron Wanttaja

I don't see a win or loose, until we see how it plays out.

As long as Part 39 remains unchanged, I only see the FAA writing new ADs with a added statement. and will make the ADs apply to EXP aircraft.

 

[Tom-D]

Re: Did we win or lose

It's not "getting around a reg." The FAA retains the same authority it had before the issuance of the AC. They're merely establishing how they will exercise that authority.
Ron Wanttaja

My point was, the AC in para 9 contradicts Part 39, which has regulatory authority.

ADs do apply to the home built bunch. It's always been that way. no matter what a AC implies. you can't even modify the product and say it isn't what it is, see 39.15.

Read page 9(b) and see how it states that " but not limited to" means all aircraft that that equipment in installed on.

 

[wanttaja]

Re: Did we win or lose

I don't see a win or loose, until we see how it plays out.

Oh, from my point of view it's a win. I have a Continental C-85 in my Fly Baby, and what the FAA has done is state that all existing ADs on that engine don't apply to me.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Tom-D]

Re: Did we win or lose

Oh, from my point of view it's a win. I have a Continental C-85 in my Fly Baby, and what the FAA has done is state that all existing ADs on that engine don't apply to me.

Ron Wanttaja

Not really, read para 9 (b) of the AC. and see how the statement "but not limited to" makes the AD apply to all aircraft that that engine is installed in.

here ya go, AC para 9 (b) (2)
(2) “This AD applies to Lycoming Engines Models AEIO-360-A1A and IO-360-A1A. This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed engine models installed.” This statement makes the AD applicable to the listed engine models installed on TC’d and non-TC’d aircraft.

sorry to burst your bubble

 

[wanttaja]

Re: Did we win or lose

Not really, read para 9 (b) of the AC. and see how the statement "but not limited to" makes the AD apply to all aircraft that that engine is installed in.

here ya go, AC para 9 (b) (2)
(2) “This AD applies to Lycoming Engines Models AEIO-360-A1A and IO-360-A1A. This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed engine models installed.” This statement makes the AD applicable to the listed engine models installed on TC’d and non-TC’d aircraft.

sorry to burst your bubble

I looked at several ADs for the C-85. None of them used the phrase, "This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed [component] installed" or anything close to it. Bubble intact.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Re: Did we win or lose

I don't see a win or loose, until we see how it plays out.

As long as Part 39 remains unchanged, I only see the FAA writing new ADs with a added statement. and will make the ADs apply to EXP aircraft.

I think if it's loose, there's an AD no matter which type of plane and you don't win.

 

[Tom-D]

Re: Did we win or lose

I looked at several ADs for the C-85. None of them used the phrase, "This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed [component] installed" or anything close to it. Bubble intact.

Ron Wanttaja

When the AD is already written refer to para 9 b in the AC.

When the FAA writes a new AD for any certified engine, the AD will have the new statement.

The AC says.

b. Non-TC’d Aircraft and Products Installed Thereon. Non-TC’d aircraft
(e.g., amateur-built aircraft, experimental exhibition) are aircraft for which the FAA has not issued a TC under part 21. The AD applicability statement will identify if the AD applies to non-TC’d aircraft or engines, propellers, and appliances installed thereon. The following are examples of applicability statements for ADs related to non-TC’d aircraft:

(2) “This AD applies to Lycoming Engines Models AEIO-360-A1A and IO-360-A1A. This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed engine models installed.” This statement makes the AD applicable to the listed engine models installed on TC’d and non-TC’d aircraft.

 

[wanttaja]

Re: Did we win or lose

When the AD is already written refer to para 9 b in the AC.

When the FAA writes a new AD for any certified engine, the AD will have the new statement.

Yes... new ADs. The last AD affecting a Continental C-85 was about 15 years ago.

The new Advisory Circular protects me against FAA inspectors or FBOs telling me, that, since my Fly Baby has an engine with a Continental data plate, I have to prove compliance with every AD issued against that engine over the past ~60 years. I consider this a plus.

Mind you, I'm getting to the point where I have to consider getting the engine overhauled. I'd want the rebuilder to check compliance with ADs just as a safety issue.

Otherwise, I'm not too worried about a flood of new ADs. If one comes out...well, a licensed A&P has to do the Condition Inspection anyway. It looks like most of the C-85 ADs have had a 25-hour compliance requirement. I fly less than 50 hours a year, so the odds are I can just wait until the next Condition Inspection.

My reading of the AC indicates that the owner of a Repairman Certificate should be able to accomplish the AD on his or her plane..."This responsibility may be met by ensuring that properly certificated and appropriately rated maintenance person(s) accomplish the requirements of the AD and properly record this action in the appropriate maintenance records."

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Tom-D]

Re: Did we win or lose

Yes... new ADs. The last AD affecting a Continental C-85 was about 15 years ago.

The new Advisory Circular protects me against FAA inspectors or FBOs telling me, that, since my Fly Baby has an engine with a Continental data plate, I have to prove compliance with every AD issued against that engine over the past ~60 years. I consider this a plus.

Mind you, I'm getting to the point where I have to consider getting the engine overhauled. I'd want the rebuilder to check compliance with ADs just as a safety issue.

Otherwise, I'm not too worried about a flood of new ADs. If one comes out...well, a licensed A&P has to do the Condition Inspection anyway. It looks like most of the C-85 ADs have had a 25-hour compliance requirement. I fly less than 50 hours a year, so the odds are I can just wait until the next Condition Inspection.

My reading of the AC indicates that the owner of a Repairman Certificate should be able to accomplish the AD on his or her plane..."This responsibility may be met by ensuring that properly certificated and appropriately rated maintenance person(s) accomplish the requirements of the AD and properly record this action in the appropriate maintenance records."

Ron Wanttaja

I agree with your last para, there is nothing in the AC directing any change as to who can work on or comply with ADs on non type certificated aircraft.

AS for new ADs on the continental 85, probably not, just like the Warner, but what about all the appliances? got a bendix mag, or switch? All those Appliance ADs have the statement, "used on but not limited to" statement in the AD.

IAW the AC these must be complied with on all non TCed aircraft.
AD 2005-12-06
Effective Date

(a) This AD becomes effective July 19, 2005.

Affected ADs

(b) This AD supersedes AD 96-12-07, Amendment 39-9649.

Applicability: (c) This AD applies to Teledyne Continental Motors (TCM) (formerly Bendix) magnetos that have a magneto part number (P/N) listed in Table 1 of TCM Mandatory Service Bulletin (MSB) No. MSB645, dated April 4, 1994, installed on Lycoming AEIO- 540, HIO-540, IO-540, 0-540, and TIO-540 series engines. These engines are installed on, but not limited to, airplanes manufactured by the Cessna Aircraft Company, Maule Aerospace Technology Corporation, Mooney Aircraft Corporation, The New Piper Aircraft Inc., and Raytheon Aircraft Company (Formerly Beech Aircraft Company).

very typical of the FAA wording on all appliance ADs

Now they apply to you too.

pop,,,, goes the bubble.

 

[Skylane81E]

So basically you have an incentive to use non aircraft parts on your home built to escape ADs?

 

[Tom-D]

So basically you have an incentive to use non aircraft parts on your home built to escape ADs?

That's what it's all about.

If it's an Aviation product the FAA can issue an AD.

If it is a Honda probably not so much.

 

[Tom-D]

IMHO this AC is a FAA's Lawyerized method of trying to clarify a problem that didn't exist, and in so doing made it worse.

 

[wanttaja]

Good points, Tom. I happen to know the EAA guy who was involved in this. I've pinged him for some information.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[bluerooster]

Re: Did we win or lose

I looked at several ADs for the C-85. None of them used the phrase, "This AD applies to any aircraft with the listed [component] installed" or anything close to it. Bubble intact.

Ron Wanttaja

But, If you had an RV with an IO-360-A1A, yer bubble would be busted.
I think that is the point.

One day there will be an AD for something attatched to your C-85, with the proper wording which will bust your bubble.

Dang!! What about AD81-16-05? It applies to Slick mags, attatched to C-85s. Has nothing to do with the airframe being a homebuilt, but with Slick mags on a C-85. Now, if you had those same mags on a subaru, or honda, it might not apply, but the words "...but not limited to..." when referring to the application, means that the AD, may still apply.