Did no one see this coming?

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the people that push this are either ignorant in the ways of business or don't care because it makes them a nice living and gets them on the fake news tv shows..
 
paflyer said:
the people that push this are either ignorant in the ways of business or don't care because it makes them a nice living and gets them on the fake news tv shows..
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It's a professional organization that has spent something like 4-5 million bucks to push this. Low margin businesses this is what happens. I'm all for higher wages but there are detrimental consequences with minimum wage type jobs.
 
This is stupidity. It helps no one. And it hurts two classes of people the most - anybody that relies on savings for retirement because inflation artificially doubled and now there savings are cut in half, and the very people it was intended to protect, since now everything costs twice as much plus now a lot of them are going to be out of a job.

It's like this. If I have to pay a $7 worker $15, I'm only going to hire $15 workers. $7 workers won't have a place in my company.
 
Sac Arrow said:
This is stupidity. It helps no one. And it hurts two classes of people the most - anybody that relies on savings for retirement because inflation artificially doubled and now there savings are cut in half, and the very people it was intended to protect, since now everything costs twice as much plus now a lot of them are going to be out of a job.

It's like this. If I have to pay a $7 worker $15, I'm only going to hire $15 workers. $7 workers won't have a place in my company.
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It's like this....at Walmart, (who recently raised their hourly a slight bit, ) most workers are paid minimum so they have to collect welfare! Most of what Walmart sells comes from China so no American worker benefits from that. Wages have remained stagnant since the late seventies! The inflation fear has not materialized. Nada! The increase in wages will mean more spending by the "unwashed masses" . As for bringing jobs back to America. It's a lie made up for dummies. Automation has removed millions off jobs with more to come. Also, Hard to compete with Chinese making forty bucks a week.
 
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Quoting Forbes is funny. Steve Forbes inherited millions , has never worked a day in his life! Much less for minimum wage.
 
Uneducated minimum wage workers who barely get by just see their pay will increase, I wouldn't expect them to comprehend the economic consequences. But the politicians who are backing this know better (I'm sure some probably don't, they can be pretty stupid) and do it anyway. That's irresponsible.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Quoting Forbes is funny. Steve Forbes inherited millions , has never worked a day in his life! Much less for minimum wage.
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He doesn't work? You have personal knowledge of his daily routine? You think running the Forbes organization isn't "work"?
 
Bob Noel said:
At least some of the people opposed to the minimum wage understood the probably consequences, including the loss of low-paying jobs.

I doubt that the people pushing for higher and higher minimum wages really thought through the whole thing.
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They don't have to- it gets the rabble roused, which is their true intent. They could give two shytes about the people it affects.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
It's like this....at Walmart, (who recently raised their hourly a slight bit, ) most workers are paid minimum so they have to collect welfare! Most of what Walmart sells comes from China so no American worker benefits from that. Wages have remained stagnant since the late seventies! The inflation fear has not materialized. Nada! The increase in wages will mean more spending by the "unwashed masses" . As for bringing jobs back to America. It's a lie made up for dummies. Automation has removed millions off jobs with more to come. Also, Hard to compete with Chinese making forty bucks a week.
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You have some unimpeachable ( you know, besides Salon and ilk) facts on your assertions?
 
Plenty of kiosks are being installed regardless of the minimum wage. I'm sure the 15 bucks didn't help, but it's not like it wouldn't have happened anyway.

Technology is going to shift the job market in huge ways, regardless of the policies of either the left or the right.
 
15 bucks might be a bit much in one jump but there is a point you could raise min wage with essentially no inflationary or negative outcomes. We've seen this in local areas that have had increases. In my years studying econ its hard to find anything outside of anecdotal evidence against it. Even retail a labor cost heavy industry should be able to absorb the cost no problem. Also could we get past this false notion that even a large increase in the min wage has these bizarre inflationary outcomes. I realize its hyperbole used to demonstrate a point but its not doing the against side any favors.
 
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Minimum wage is a starting point, not a living.

When I see 40-50 year old people working minimum wage jobs I always wonder if they ever tried to achieve something better in life. I quit working in the restaurant business because I wanted to make more money and get more time off.

The town I live in is full of minimum wage jobs. I wonder how many businesses will close because if the minimum wage doubles. I know I won't pay 15 bucks for a happy meal....

The labor pool isn't very big here, most minimum wage workers just roam from job to job and never achieve much at all.
 
orange said:
Uneducated minimum wage workers who barely get by just see their pay will increase, I wouldn't expect them to comprehend the economic consequences. But the politicians who are backing this know better (I'm sure some probably don't, they can be pretty stupid) and do it anyway. That's irresponsible.
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You are assuming that they will still have a job.
 
All the lost jobs will just end up on welfare, which will also have to increase as things are now more expensive. It's a win-win situation for those pushing the policies.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
It's like this....at Walmart, (who recently raised their hourly a slight bit, ) most workers are paid minimum so they have to collect welfare! Most of what Walmart sells comes from China so no American worker benefits from that. Wages have remained stagnant since the late seventies! The inflation fear has not materialized. Nada! The increase in wages will mean more spending by the "unwashed masses" . As for bringing jobs back to America. It's a lie made up for dummies. Automation has removed millions off jobs with more to come. Also, Hard to compete with Chinese making forty bucks a week.
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Of course, because everyone presently earning less than the new statutory minimum wage will receive a raise to that new minimum. Nobody loses their job due to higher labor costs, that additional cost is covered by the additional sales to the "unwashed masses". I find it amazing how common that understanding is. If advocates of a higher minimum wage truly believe that, then why fight for $15? Why not fight for $100? Or fight for $1000? For if their understanding is valid then the higher the minimum wage the greater the benefit.
 
roncachamp said:
Of course, because everyone presently earning less than the new statutory minimum wage will receive a raise to that new minimum. Nobody loses their job due to higher labor costs, that additional cost is covered by the additional sales to the "unwashed masses". I find it amazing how common that understanding is. If advocates of a higher minimum wage truly believe that, then why fight for $15? Why not fight for $100? Or fight for $1000? For if their understanding is valid then the higher the minimum wage the greater the benefit.
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An absurd argument! stop watching Fox News and read! I find it amazing you so ill informed. Catch up! Read more!
 
Bob Noel said:
At least some of the people opposed to the minimum wage understood the probably consequences, including the loss of low-paying jobs.

I doubt that the people pushing for higher and higher minimum wages really thought through the whole thing.
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Actually, they have, and you have to understand their agenda. Jerry Brown is one of the first governors to push the $15 minimum wage at state level, and the man is, with no exaggeration or embellishment, a strict Marxist. He is. I attended a private speech he gave at UC Davis once; not a campaign speech, but an educational speech. If he had his way, and the world was perfect, there would be no private industry and the State would produce all goods and services. He also believes that any accumulated wealth is evil (his own words), and that everyone should get equal pay regardless of position or value.

The people at the top that push this damn well know what the consequences are, and their view of what the country should be is very different than most of ours.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
An absurd argument! stop watching Fox News and read! I find it amazing you so ill informed. Catch up! Read more!
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What argument? I've heard this position from real live human beings. They're wrong, of course, but that's not the point. They believe they're right, so why do they pick $15?
 
The real problem is an economy that is so crappy 90+ million who want to work don't have jobs nor any prospects for employment. Trump has the right idea, slash taxes, slash regulation, ditch lousy trade deals, let people breath again, and they will get busy.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
An absurd argument! stop watching Fox News and read! I find it amazing you so ill informed. Catch up! Read more!
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Paying someone with limited skills $15/hr is already absurd.

What will happen to the people making $15/hr now? Won't they want a raise since someone just walking in to the job is getting the same? Won't the price of everything (that's called "inflation", Jimmy) eventually go up to the point where the goods and services that $15/hr buys today is too much, relatively?
 
PaulS said:
The real problem is an economy that is so crappy 90+ million who want to work don't have jobs nor any prospects for employment. Trump has the right idea, slash taxes, slash regulation, ditch lousy trade deals, let people breath again, and they will get busy.
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Agreed 100% and in before the lock!
 
PaulS said:
The real problem is an economy that is so crappy 90+ million who want to work don't have jobs nor any prospects for employment. Trump has the right idea, slash taxes, slash regulation, ditch lousy trade deals, let people breath again, and they will get busy.
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I like the second part but the first about all those "hard working" unemployed that cannot find a job is asinine! This country is full of useless lazy people who want to make 100K a year but not have to work for it. The kind that think getting 9/hr at a gas station is the best thing ever because they don't have to do much of anything. I see it all the time, my students graduate from college and then ***** and moan because they aren't getting starting jobs making 50+ and hour? no one wants to start at the bottom and earn their way up with hard work and constant learning.
I was trying to explain to our oldest boy the concept of supply and demand in the workforce. he mentioned that he wants to make big bucks with video games, reviewing them, playing them etc etc. he doesn't understand like a big chunk of our youth that there are millions and millions that want to do the same exact thing graduating high school every year, with that much of a worker supply, they will never have to pay you much of anything because if you don't like it they can have your seat filled before it gets cold.
 
Before the lock....

EMTs (emergency medical technicians) that have studied and trained and go through recurrent training to save lives start out around 15 bucks an hour. Now why should the local burger flipper that has had a total amount of 15 minutes of training and goes through no recurrent training make the same amount of money?
 
Zeldman said:
Before the lock....

EMTs (emergency medical technicians) that have studied and trained and go through recurrent training to save lives start out around 15 bucks an hour. Now why should the local burger flipper that has had a total amount of 15 minutes of training and goes through no recurrent training make the same amount of money?
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The emts are underpaid for sure. Provided they are dedicated and well trained. Easy. Try to remember that the jobs at Beth steel, furniture factory's, many auto plants etc. ARE GONE, overseas. these jobs provided training and eventual rise to a good living! these jobs are gone and are not coming back. Then throw in automation and it's easy to see that the decent living jobs are in very short supply which is why well educated types are driving cabs, flipping burgers etc. Those jobs are not coming back and anyone who claims they are is lying.
 
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Automation will only be allowed to go so far though. Technology will probably progress to a point where lets say 20% of the jobs out there can be done by computers/robots. But the government will have to enact laws that prohibit companies from eliminating jobs below a certain level. What happens to all those people? Welfare? I don't think somebody with a grad degree making mid-high six figures will settle for 1/4 of that collecting welfare, like a useless uneducated bum. The government wouldn't be able to fully support 50 million people.

Think about it, it can't/won't be allowed. There would be a revolt, anarchy, basically a revolution.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Those jobs are not coming back and anyone who claims they are is lying.
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Depends on why they left. If they left due to high taxes, then lowering taxes would bring them back, all else being pretty equal.

But if they left to find cheap Asian labor, then lowering taxes unfortunately will not bring them back since nobody in the US will work for $0.20/hr. And that's the problem, IMO the majority of the firms left due to labor costs. There are no unions in Asia, and they can pay less than $1/hr and if somebody quits, their position is filled within minutes, whereas remedial labor in the US now wants $15/hr.
 
roncachamp said:
Of course, because everyone presently earning less than the new statutory minimum wage will receive a raise to that new minimum. Nobody loses their job due to higher labor costs, that additional cost is covered by the additional sales to the "unwashed masses". I find it amazing how common that understanding is. If advocates of a higher minimum wage truly believe that, then why fight for $15? Why not fight for $100? Or fight for $1000? For if their understanding is valid then the higher the minimum wage the greater the benefit.
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The same argument could be made for the supply side economics on the other side of the spectrum.

How low do you cut taxes before people start being trickled on? Cutting taxes makes for excellent stump speeches but turns out someone has to pay for all the fancy wiz bang blowey up stuff we're (myself included) enamored with as a country.
 
orange said:
But the government will have to enact laws that prohibit companies from eliminating jobs below a certain level. What happens to all those people? Welfare?
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Forcing companies to hire people they don't need is the same as welfare.

Probably worse since people on welfare with any kind of self worth will try and get out of it.

If you're under the illusion that your job is worthwhile, even though its a goverment enforced 'welfare' job - there wont be a push for people to better themselves and they'll stay in the welfare job for life. And then once again jobs will shift to places that DONT have the same force-hiring regulations.
 
orange said:
Depends on why they left. If they left due to high taxes, then lowering taxes would bring them back, all else being pretty equal.
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Which jobs left due to higher taxes, and where did they leave to?
 
deonb said:
There isn't one. Not everybody will have a job in the future. Society will need to adapt.
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To what? Hundreds of millions get to be poets or "artists" living off the remainder's sweat?
 
ircphoenix said:
The same argument could be made for the supply side economics on the other side of the spectrum.

How low do you cut taxes before people start being trickled on? Cutting taxes makes for excellent stump speeches but turns out someone has to pay for all the fancy wiz bang blowey up stuff we're (myself included) enamored with as a country.
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Tax revenue is the product of the tax rate and tax base. Cutting the tax rates encouraged economic growth. The resultant larger tax base produced greater tax revenue after the tax cuts.
 
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