Diamond DA20

[wildwobby]

Hello,

I'm currently a student pilot working on my PPL.

I have been looking quite a lot at what I will be doing after I get my certificate.

I'm doing my training in a C150 at my local chicago-area airport.

The DA20 has really caught my eye.

I was just comparing a few diferent aircraft including the C172, da20, da40, and SR20. Now, I know that the DA20 is much smaller than all of the other aircraft listed, but it seems to just blow the others away!

The price to buy new is first off over a hundred thousand dollars less than a new C172. It seems that it only burning 5.5GPH, its operating costs would be almost half of any of the other aircraft too. It is also faster than A C172, and in my opinion nicer looking.

Is there something I'm missing? It seems like the DA20 completely blows away any other aircraft for the money.

Would it be a good "first-aircraft".

I don't plan on taking more than 1 passenger anywhere at a time regularly, so that shouldn't be an issue.

My use for it would be mostly as a hobby, maybe use it for aerial photography, and probably some x/c (~900nm) flights every few years.

What is your opinion?

Right now,
Its probably a little early to be looking as I am still a student, and don't plan on actually making a purchase for 1 year+ eventhough I will probably get my ppl many months before then.

But what do you guys think about the DA20?
The only downside I see is that it is not IFR certified for once I get my instrument rating.

 

[tonycondon]

i think you've summed it up pretty well. if they were IFR approved they'd be truly amazing. but otherwise i think they're great airplanes and would be a good airplane to learn to fly in or own.

 

[jesse]

I absolutely loved the DA-20 I used to fly. It is a hell of an airplane. As long as you don't need the room of a larger airplane you'll be happy with it. It is more fun then a 172 or 150 for sure. It isn't exactly a traveling airplane. You can do 900 mile trips with it--but if you're wanting to do them fast and through some weather you're going to want a more capable airplane (bigger, faster, IFR, etc).

The only disadvantage to the DA-20 is the fact that it is VFR only. No IFR in it, ever.

 

[flyersfan31]

No IFR is a killer if you really want to do long XCs. BTW, 900mi is a loooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggg XC in a single engine piston.

If you thought you would have all the time in the world, for wx delays, then the DA20 might be ok as a cross country plane. I have no experience in them, other than gawking, but I'd think it might get kinda toasty under that canopy in warm weather.

Your instincts, as a studen pilot, not to get involved in ownership are correct. Wait, get your ppl, fly a flew, see what you like and don't like, then jump in.

Remember, when you do start looking, gph is only part of the equation. The other part is mph. A Bonanza sounds like a real gas guzzler at 17gph, but it goes so much faster (plus you can run LOP, but that's a topic for another day) that it ends up being somewhat economical. At the lower end, Grumman and Mooney win on the economy+speed equation.

 

[KennyFlys]

Welcome to the board!

The DA-20 is a great trainer. It's not my favorite but then I've always been more fond of the 172 Skyhawk.

If you want to buy for training as well as time building and future ratings, I'd jump up to at least a Skyhawk. If you want a decent cross country aircraft also suitable for training, go for a 182 Skylane; preferably a straight leg.

If you're not content with rental only through primary training, I'd suggest a used aircraft for your first couple hundred hours. Build some time and experience then decide what you want to move up to.

 

[jesse]

I have no experience in them, other than gawking, but I'd think it might get kinda toasty under that canopy in warm weather.

Actually it is nice in the hot weather. I always taxied around with the canopy slightly opened. This gave amazing airflow--no way to be hot like that. In the air the DA-20 has vents on the panel that you can point wherever you want. Point it at your face, open it all the way up, and it'll blow your sun glasses off.

Way way better airflow then a Cessna or Piper.

 

[wildwobby]

Wow,

Thanks for all of the fast replies.

The fact that it doesn't have IFR certification doesn't really bother me because I wouldn't want to fly in that kind of weather anyways. The main reason I fly is because it is FUN. It isn't much fun flying when you can't see jack****. I also don't really want a bonanza because I don't really need anything that fast. Considering I do it as a hobby. I will be mostly staying near my local airport for the most part, going faster means more gas, and less air time per dollar.

Again, I wont be making a purchase for some time; I just wanted something to look forward to :-D.

Do the aircraft get updated much from year to year?

 

[flyersfan31]

Don't buy a new trainer-class, or step-up aircraft. You'll get killed on depreciation. A new Archer or 172? Fuggedaboudit.

Don't buy an aircraft as a student. Others have, and they say they did ok. My opinion: make your bad landings, and crappy engine management decisions, on someone else's airplane. Learn to fly without learning to arrange for fueling, maintenance, dealing with unexpected squawks, tie-downs, pre-heating, yada yada yada. There's plenty of time to enjoy that as an owner. You can't really do anything but train anyway as a student. Why bother getting a plane that'll take you places you can't go? Don't worry about insurance. Unless you're planning to get your PPL and promptly buy a Piper Malibu or something, a few hours of dual is all you'll need to get coverage.

 

[jason]

The DA20 is a great/fun plane. That said, if you want slow and local flights and want to do aerial photography then I'd consider something high wing. A husky or similar would be my dream plane if I didn't want to travel and didn't care about speed. Flying in Chip's Husky with the door open was about as much fun as I've had flying in the last couple of years.

 

[fdorrin]

I have many hours teaching in the DA20 and absolutely love the airplane. HOWEVER, it has an early history of engine problems that are/were serious and expensive. The drive gear would fail on the engine driven fuel pump, requiring that the entire engine be pulled/replaced/repaired. I've seen multiple engines put in the three we were flying in Delaware back in 2002/2003. Some with only 300 hours. Failure was indicated by sudden loss of oil pressure, and we trained to watch for that based on our experience.

They may well have fixed this issue by now, but now you know to ask.

Additionally, the laminate prop would wear at a considerable rate, so I'd investigate how often you need to replace that, and how expensive it is to do so. None of the school planes required replacement, but I was always amazed as how you could watch the erosion as the hours piled on.

There is a thermal limit on this airplane that you won't find in metal airplanes. Should be no issue in Delaware, but it would be in places like Texas and Arizona. Know where your airplane is coming from.

Grounding during fueling is unique, and most of the time the line crews think they are gounding during fueling, but don't actually ground the airplane. The exhaust stack DOES NOT ground the airplane. There is a special/custom place to do this.

As I said before - I loved flying and teaching in these airplanes. Someone else was paying the bills though.

 

[RadioRalphie]

I bought a used DA20-C1 to train for my PPL. It saved me quite a bit of money over renting.

I currently own 2 DA20-C1s and will be putting one up for sale soon. The DA20 is an awesome plane. The temperature limit is never a factor even in the SW so don't give that a thought. Because of the speed it makes a nice plane for VFR cross country. Luggage space is limited though.

Its hard to find a decent deal on one since used DA20's in nice condition command a premium because of the high demand for these in Europe.

Please email me at Rcomm4321@aol.com if you have any questions about the DA20. I have owned 8 Diamonds in total and know them pretty well.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Do the aircraft get updated much from year to year?

If you mean like model year changes in the automotive industry, no. Aircraft manufacturers have been known to issue press releases about changing the shape of a flap handle. (No joke.)

The changes from model year to model year tend to be minor -- paint schemes, interior fabrics -- unless the manufacturer has recognized a design shortcoming that needs to be addressed. You can find a lot of them by looking at the revision history of the type certificate data sheet on the FAA's web site. Generally they are changes in accessories such as brakes or pumps or something that you could retrofit if you wanted. Occasionally a model will get a dramatic makeover, which can happen after a couple of years or not for two decades. It really depends on the aircraft.

 

[RadioRalphie]

You might consider joining the Diamond Aviators group http://www.diamondaviator.org/forums/

I think getting info from actual Diamond DA20 owners is important. Opinions from non owners can be misleading and in some cases inaccurate

 

[SCCutler]

Note that the DA20-C1 has the Continental engine, instead of the Rotax, performs better and the engine is very robust.

I never saw a no-go condition on the "heat dot" (spar temp), even on the hottest, "melt your butt to the seat" Texas day.

I would dearly love to have a DA20-C1 as a fun machine.

 

[flyersfan31]

You might consider joining the Diamond Aviators group http://www.diamondaviator.org/forums/

I think getting info from actual Diamond DA20 owners is important. Opinions from non owners can be misleading and in some cases inaccurate

Jeez, Ralphie, looks like you have a whole squadron there!!!

 

[RadioRalphie]

Jeez, Ralphie, looks like you have a whole squadron there!!!

Just doing my part to stimulate the economy

 

[Danos]

It isn't much fun flying when you can't see jack****.

That depends on your idea of fun . Diamond makes a great aircraft! you cant beat the visibility out of the canopy, and its a sweetheart to handle. It's got a better glide ratio than most single pistons too. I'd recommend it. Good luck in your plight and welcome to POA!

 

[bullwinkle]

Depends on the mission...you can never put three people in a DA20!

 

[Ken Ibold]

Depends on the mission...you can never put three people in a DA20!

Sure you can.

 

[steingar]

I bought an aircraft as a student and loved it. Didn't have to worry about aircraft not coming back on time, and I knew what had been done to my bird. Every time I rented an aircraft I had trouble. The Diamond is a wonderful aircraft and would make an excellent first aircraft. However, what you make up in fuel efficiency you'll spend in acquisition costs; you pay the piper one way or the other. If you don't believe me price Cherokees and Skyhawks relative to the Diamond, and you'll see what I mean. The Diamonds do tend to be newer, and possibly better equipped, but you pay for all that. They may look like a big value, but they really aren't that much.

As a student I was happy in a spam can, if I broke it I wasn't out so much cash. I like the fact that I can put the occasional back seat passengers in, and I have lots of luggage space which I use frequently with me and the Mrs. (especially with the Mrs.!). If you want to take your S.O. on a week long vacation you'll run out of room quick in a Diamond; I do this at least once a year and usually more. The spam cans may be old and stodgey, but in most ways they are where the real value lies in aircraft.

 

[Ken Ibold]

The Diamond is a wonderful aircraft and would make an excellent first aircraft. However, what you make up in fuel efficiency you'll spend in acquisition costs; you pay the piper one way or the other. If you don't believe me price Cherokees and Skyhawks relative to the Diamond, and you'll see what I mean.

Yes, but the fuel cost is money that is gone, whereas the cost of the higher value aircraft is an asset you retain. In addition, a newer airplane generally requires less maintenance, which reduces cost and minimizes downtime.

 

[The rogue]

I have a few hours in a DA-40. Similiar concept, but the "stretched" version. I loved the handling and smoothness of the aircraft. The 530/430 combo was also most excellent as well. It had really amazing visibility and it handled like a jet (compared to the Arrow I was used to at the time). The instrument panel was laid out well and everything was in the "right" place, it shows that they thought about things before they put them in. Overall, the airplane was wonderful. BUT:

This aircraft is unbearably hot in the summer at low altitudes. This might be simply because it was really hot out (go figure), or because I was sitting under a magnifying glass. The caveat to this is what you consider "fun" altitudes. Over Kansas, below 1000', I found the plane miserable. This was an OLDER DA-40 with the smaller air vents, but 95 degree air is 95 degree air.....

Also, fly a few cross countries in one (LOOOOOONG CROSS COUNTRIES). There is an issue with the fit of the airplane. At 6' tall, the 40 fit me like a glove, a really tight glove.

Like I said, before you spend the kind of money that they are asking for one of these, make sure that you rent one and fly the crap out of it....

--Matt Rogers

 

[flyersfan31]

I have a few hours in a DA-40. Similiar concept, but the "stretched" version. I loved the handling and smoothness of the aircraft. The 530/430 combo was also most excellent as well. It had really amazing visibility and it handled like a jet (compared to the Arrow I was used to at the time). The instrument panel was laid out well and everything was in the "right" place, it shows that they thought about things before they put them in. Overall, the airplane was wonderful. BUT:

This aircraft is unbearably hot in the summer at low altitudes. This might be simply because it was really hot out (go figure), or because I was sitting under a magnifying glass. The caveat to this is what you consider "fun" altitudes. Over Kansas, below 1000', I found the plane miserable. This was an OLDER DA-40 with the smaller air vents, but 95 degree air is 95 degree air.....

Also, fly a few cross countries in one (LOOOOOONG CROSS COUNTRIES). There is an issue with the fit of the airplane. At 6' tall, the 40 fit me like a glove, a really tight glove.

Like I said, before you spend the kind of money that they are asking for one of these, make sure that you rent one and fly the crap out of it....

--Matt Rogers

I don't like the stick - right there in the pax lap. It would be better if there were a way to collapse it when it wasn't needed. I mentioned that to the Diamond rep at AOPA when I was looking at the TwinStar (man, that would have been a BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEG mistake) and he said he thought the DA50 would have that feature.

 

[KennyFlys]

Sure you can.

With slight size limitations?

 

[sba55]

A good first aircraft is any aircraft that fits your mission profile. If you have a good idea of your mission profile now, you can narrow your choices down to a few aircraft. If you are only going to fly 900NM once or twice a year and your other flights are going to be somewhat local, the DA20 might be just fine.

That said, here are a few random observations in no particular order:

- 900NM is not that much in a reasonable X/C airplane. The DA20 is not a X/C airplane, however, and neither is a 150 or a 172. You're sort of getting there with a 182 as long as you have lots of time.
- I wouldn't base my purchase decisions on mpg because a) it doesn't matter nearly as much as other factors (cost of engine overhauls, insurance, etc.) and b) because it isn't intuitive. For example, in my old Bonanza, I could cruise along at 168 KTAS with 11.7 gph. Of course, I could also be wasteful and burn 17 or 20 gph. Run properly, you're not going to see much difference in mpg between airplanes of similar speeds (twins excluded, of course).
- Going faster does not mean burning more fuel. The engines used on Bonanzas are (surprisingly) more efficient than those on 172s, for example. You can fly them very efficiently and very slowly and then you still have the capability of going fast if you want it.

Personally, it seems like there are only a few basic decisions to be made initially:
- Buy new or old? New is nice if you are ok with the depreciation and if you can actually find a new airplane that works for your mission. Otherwise, you can save a lot of money buying an older aircraft.
- Number of seats
- Speed
- Endurance

-Felix

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The DA20 has really caught my eye.

I was just comparing a few diferent aircraft including the C172, da20, da40, and SR20. Now, I know that the DA20 is much smaller than all of the other aircraft listed, but it seems to just blow the others away!

The price to buy new is first off over a hundred thousand dollars less than a new C172. It seems that it only burning 5.5GPH, its operating costs would be almost half of any of the other aircraft too. It is also faster than A C172, and in my opinion nicer looking.

Is there something I'm missing? It seems like the DA20 completely blows away any other aircraft for the money.

Would it be a good "first-aircraft".

I don't plan on taking more than 1 passenger anywhere at a time regularly, so that shouldn't be an issue.

My use for it would be mostly as a hobby, maybe use it for aerial photography, and probably some x/c (~900nm) flights every few years.

What is your opinion?

Right now,
Its probably a little early to be looking as I am still a student, and don't plan on actually making a purchase for 1 year+ eventhough I will probably get my ppl many months before then.

But what do you guys think about the DA20?
The only downside I see is that it is not IFR certified for once I get my instrument rating.

I think your observations are pretty much right on.

If I were you, and had the money to buy a new airplane, and wanted to get my instrument rating, I'd buy a used DA20. Finish your private, fly around for fun, go places, and then learn how to fly on the gauges with it. There is only one flight you will not be able to make, and that is your long IFR cross country.

Then, once I had my rating and knew how to fly on the "steam gauges" I'd get a DA40 (or even get really good on the gauges, and buy the DA40 pre-instrument rating and do the long IFR XC in it). The reason for buying a used DA20 in the first place would be so that you don't take such a hit on depreciation when you trade up to the 40.

Or, just get the 40 in the first place. It's also a very efficient machine. A new DA-40XLS will do 155 knots on 10 gph, which pretty much beats the hell out of any other new 4+ place airplane in efficiency.

What you definitely want to do, though, is rent a DA20 and a DA40 before you jump into buying anything. I believe Skill Aviation at Waukegan rents both (as well as the twin-engine DA42), and A&M at Clow rents a DA40XL I believe (Grant?) so you shouldn't have to travel too far to check these out.

Have fun, and let us know what you do!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

No IFR is a killer if you really want to do long XCs. BTW, 900mi is a loooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggg XC in a single engine piston.

Bah! I've done several of those in SE pistons. TX and west coast in the 182, and that 172 I just ferried to Maine. I wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis in the 172 without the tailwinds I enjoyed on this trip, but anything that goes 130 knots or more can get places faster than almost any other method of travel, including airlines. Yes, even on a 900nm trip in some cases - There's a reason my last round-trip flight on an airline was in 2003. When I got to my destination, I realized that with all of the extra hassles involved in airline flying I could have gotten there just as fast in an Archer (which will NOT do 130 knots.)

If you thought you would have all the time in the world, for wx delays, then the DA20 might be ok as a cross country plane. I have no experience in them, other than gawking, but I'd think it might get kinda toasty under that canopy in warm weather.

Dunno about the 20, but the 40 has *3* canopy positions - Open, closed, and with about a 4" opening at the back (for use on the ground only). Also, as Jesse mentioned, airflow is good.

If you want a decent cross country aircraft also suitable for training, go for a 182 Skylane; preferably a straight leg.

Straight leg only gets you one more rating (Instrument). The 182 is a nice plane, but for someone who seems to be looking at efficiency, well... Hmmm. A new one will do 140 KTAS on 12.9 gph, but that's not all that efficient.

If you're not content with rental only through primary training, I'd suggest a used aircraft for your first couple hundred hours. Build some time and experience then decide what you want to move up to.

Good call, but I'd try to rent any type before buying it, even if it was used and I didn't plan on keeping it.

The fact that it doesn't have IFR certification doesn't really bother me because I wouldn't want to fly in that kind of weather anyways. The main reason I fly is because it is FUN. It isn't much fun flying when you can't see jack****.

Ah, but with most instrument flying, you're not sitting in the clouds for the whole flight - You're popping up through a layer to fly on top, and the sights you see up there are even better. Plus, every day is a sunny day if you fly high enough. In addition, you'll want to use your plane to go places, and sooner or later you'll run into crummy weather doing so. Having the instrument rating and a capable plane will often let you get home on time, whereas being stuck with VFR will mean you spend 3 days waiting for a low cloud layer to clear instead.

Believe me, IFR flying is fun too.

The DA20 is a great/fun plane. That said, if you want slow and local flights and want to do aerial photography then I'd consider something high wing. A husky or similar would be my dream plane if I didn't want to travel and didn't care about speed. Flying in Chip's Husky with the door open was about as much fun as I've had flying in the last couple of years.

Photography is OK in a Diamond because with the high aspect ratio wing it doesn't block nearly as much of the view as other low wings, and most high wings have struts and landing gear hanging out there anyway. (If I were buying a plane purely for photography, it'd have to be a Cardinal RG.)

I have many hours teaching in the DA20 and absolutely love the airplane. HOWEVER, it has an early history of engine problems that are/were serious and expensive. The drive gear would fail on the engine driven fuel pump, requiring that the entire engine be pulled/replaced/repaired. I've seen multiple engines put in the three we were flying in Delaware back in 2002/2003.

(snip)

Additionally, the laminate prop would wear at a considerable rate

I think these issues were specific to the original Diamond "Katana" DA20-A1. There's a reason that the DA20-C1 was called the Eclipse - They didn't want the stigma of the issues they had on the original to affect it.

Note that the DA20-C1 has the Continental engine, instead of the Rotax, performs better and the engine is very robust.

I never saw a no-go condition on the "heat dot" (spar temp), even on the hottest, "melt your butt to the seat" Texas day.

What Spike said. The actual structure temp limit is 131 degrees F. If the structure itself exceeds that temp, then you can't fly. I'm pretty sure I'd melt before the plane would.

Like I said, before you spend the kind of money that they are asking for one of these, make sure that you rent one and fly the crap out of it....

+1.

 

[steingar]

Yes, but the fuel cost is money that is gone, whereas the cost of the higher value aircraft is an asset you retain. In addition, a newer airplane generally requires less maintenance, which reduces cost and minimizes downtime.

You make good points, but I wouldn't count on any aircraft holding its value with the sort of financial fluctuations occurring today. Besides, most spam cans will hold value equally well if not more so; there is a greater market for them. And don't forget that capitol has costs associated. The extra tens of thousands of dollars could potentially make a fair amount of money.

 

[jason]

I absolutely agree. I was simply commenting on his mission profile. DA20's are great planes because they give you a newer-ish platform. They have good/great speed for the initial investment and have lower-ish operating costs. That said, the OP said that speed didn't matter to him and that he mostly wanted to putter around the local area and check things out. Given that mission profile I could think of many other airplanes that would make that puttering more enjoyable (like Chip's Husky with the door open )

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I absolutely agree. I was simply commenting on his mission profile. DA20's are great planes because they give you a newer-ish platform. They have good/great speed for the initial investment and have lower-ish operating costs. That said, the OP said that speed didn't matter to him and that he mostly wanted to putter around the local area and check things out. Given that mission profile I could think of many other airplanes that would make that puttering more enjoyable (like Chip's Husky with the door open )

Yeah, ain't much more fun than that, is there?

However, efficiency seemed like a prime concern, and the DA20 will burn less than the Husky and go faster for those long trips too. I probably shoulda said that the first time around.

 

[gprellwitz]

A&M at Clow rents a DA40XL I believe (Grant?) so you shouldn't have to travel too far to check these out.

Unfortunately, there are no Diamonds on line at A & M at this time.