DIAMOND DA20-A1 KATANA Opinions?

J

JasonCT

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JasonCT
Well as many of you know, I am on the search for my new plane.

I was contacted about this model plane and from all the reviews I have read seems like a blast to fly, reliable, safe, and economical.

Have no expieriance with Rotax so that is something new, but What say you?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks
 
I have not flown the A1, only the C1. The airframe is a blast to fly, but everyone I have spoken with who has flown both tells me that the Continental-powered plane is a lot more plane.

Still, if the price is right and it answers your mission...
 
I fly the C1 on a regular basis. I absolutely love it. It's a lot of fun to fly. Although it is cramped if you are a big guy. I'm 5'7" and 150 lbs and it fits me perfectly.

As Bill mentioned the airframe is not IFR certified and never will be. So you will not be flying IFR in it. This is a little frustrating because the ones I fly have a better instrument package than most rental C172s.

The A1 is a little less airplane. The Rotax does not have as much power so the A1 is about 30 knots slower I think.

You might as well go and fly it and see what you think.
 
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I've flown the A1 and I really liked it. It certainly has less power and speed than the C1, so it'll depend on your mission and your airfield's summer density altitude. It also has a constant speed prop, which is nice.

I'd ask around a bit about maintenance of the Rotax. It's used in lots of experimental aircraft, so people will know what the maintenance costs and issues will be compared to more typical engines.

Chris
 
Jay - when Jesse says their cramped for big dudes, I'll say right now that is an understatement. They are REALLY cramped for big dudes.

But those that like the Diamonds really like them.
 
It fits almost perfect for me. I think its more of a Jesse size though. So yea, its ment for smaller people.

I'd personaly be carefull with the Rotax ones, we had a Katana that went through 3 engines. One I know of died at night during a flight thankfully over an unbusy interstate.
 
AdamZ said:
jay if your gonna get your IR it won't work for you. If not enjoy
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Just a little curious. I was thinking....

Could you technically get your instrument rating in this airplane even though it's not certified for IFR (never fly in actual)?
 
Hmmm good question Jess! I suppose you could but the problem would be filing. Can you even get your IR w/o filing at somepoint? My IR XCs we had to file so I'd think so. If you file in a non certified plane and get vectored or enroute takes you into IMC your in a bind. I suppose you could always cancel and remain VFR.
 
jesse said:
Just a little curious. I was thinking....

Could you technically get your instrument rating in this airplane even though it's not certified for IFR (never fly in actual)?
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Jesse, Yes you can do all your ifr training in a DA-20, as long as it has the right equipment. You can even FILE IFR...BUT you would need to remain in VFR conditions and cannot enter IMC, as you are aware it is not IFR certified (no lightning protection).
 
AdamZ said:
Can you even get your IR w/o filing at somepoint? My IR XCs we had to file so I'd think so.
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Here it is in black and white:

14 CFR 61.65(d)(2)(iii) said:
For an instrument—airplane rating, instrument training on cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR, and consists of—
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That's the long cross country requirement. So yes, you need to file at least once.

If you file in a non certified plane and get vectored or enroute takes you into IMC your in a bind. I suppose you could always cancel and remain VFR.
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I don't think you can file IFR in a non-IFR certified bird. It's non-certified for *IFR* not *IMC*.
 
C-1 PILOT said:
Jesse, Yes you can do all your ifr training in a DA-20, as long as it has the right equipment. You can even FILE IFR...BUT you would need to remain in VFR conditions and cannot enter IMC, as you are aware it is not IFR certified (no lightning protection).
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I don't buy it.

The plane is not certified for IFR. That doesn't mean IMC, that means IFR.

14 CFR 23.1525 said:
The kinds of operation authorized (e.g. VFR, IFR, day or night) and the meteorological conditions (e.g. icing) to which the operation of the airplane is limited or from which it is prohibited, must be established appropriate to the installed equipment.
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DA20-A1 POH section 2.13 said:
Flights are permissible in accordance with visual flight rules.
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Trust me it can be done and it is legal. I know several who got trained in a C-1 and got their ticket in it AND from an FAA examiner, not a DE.

Also, check flight aware, there should be a couple of flights left in the system showing a DA/DV-20. Colorado to Florida was one.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I don't buy it.

The plane is not certified for IFR. That doesn't mean IMC, that means IFR.
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Agreed, you can't file IFR under any circumstance.

However, I would think it would be fine for teaching BAI and approaches into smaller airports where approach won't require a file to use. Such examples would be like my own GVL for the localizer or AHN for the ILS. There are many where you can do GPS approaches as a VFR flight.

But to attempt such at the likes of PDK or LZU, forget it. Those are so busy it's pretty much impossible to get an approach option without filing unless you make it late at night.
 
C-1 PILOT said:
Trust me it can be done and it is legal.
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I'd rather trust the regs. Could you explain, using references, how it can be done legally? Otherwise I'm with Kent on this one.
 
C-1 PILOT said:
Trust me it can be done and it is legal. I know several who got trained in a C-1 and got their ticket in it AND from an FAA examiner, not a DE.

Also, check flight aware, there should be a couple of flights left in the system showing a DA/DV-20. Colorado to Florida was one.
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Just because someone has done it before does not make if legal. Flight Service and ATC do not check the airworthiness and IFR certification of every plane that files and accepts an IFR clearance. You can probably get away with filing with a non-IFR certificed aircraft without getting caught until you do something else that brings you to the attention of the FAA. Then you are busted.
 
CapeCodJay said:
These are good points -- alas I am destined back to Cessna :)
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And this is a bad thing?

cac_logo.gif
:D
 
Not at all as we all know High Wings were the way God intended flight :)
 
thanks jay, but I stole it from another post Pilawt made a little while back.
 
C-1 PILOT said:
Trust me it can be done and it is legal. I know several who got trained in a C-1 and got their ticket in it AND from an FAA examiner, not a DE.
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So there's an FAA examiner who's not familiar enough with the airplane to know it's not certified... Or didn't care since a checkride does not have to be flown IFR (most aren't). The only thing that has to be done IFR is the long cross country.

That does not mean it's FAA policy that IFR is OK and IMC is not. I'd like to see a definitive reference, not anecdotal evidence.
 
jesse said:
Could you technically get your instrument rating in this airplane even though it's not certified for IFR (never fly in actual)?
Click to expand...

Well - It appears that I, and everyone who agreed with me...

AdamZ said:
Hmmm good question Jess! I suppose you could but the problem would be filing. Can you even get your IR w/o filing at somepoint? My IR XCs we had to file so I'd think so. If you file in a non certified plane and get vectored or enroute takes you into IMC your in a bind. I suppose you could always cancel and remain VFR.
Click to expand...

flyingcheesehead said:
I don't think you can file IFR in a non-IFR certified bird. It's non-certified for *IFR* not *IMC*.
Click to expand...

flyingcheesehead said:
The plane is not certified for IFR. That doesn't mean IMC, that means IFR.
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tonycondon said:
yea im pretty sure you got it Kent.
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KennyFlys said:
Agreed, you can't file IFR under any circumstance.
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skyflyer8 said:
I'd rather trust the regs. Could you explain, using references, how it can be done legally? Otherwise I'm with Kent on this one.
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Dave Theisen said:
Just because someone has done it before does not make if legal. Flight Service and ATC do not check the airworthiness and IFR certification of every plane that files and accepts an IFR clearance. You can probably get away with filing with a non-IFR certificed aircraft without getting caught until you do something else that brings you to the attention of the FAA. Then you are busted.
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flyingcheesehead said:
So there's an FAA examiner who's not familiar enough with the airplane to know it's not certified... Or didn't care since a checkride does not have to be flown IFR (most aren't). The only thing that has to be done IFR is the long cross country.

That does not mean it's FAA policy that IFR is OK and IMC is not. I'd like to see a definitive reference, not anecdotal evidence.
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... was wrong, and C-1 PILOT...

C-1 PILOT said:
Jesse, Yes you can do all your ifr training in a DA-20, as long as it has the right equipment. You can even FILE IFR...BUT you would need to remain in VFR conditions and cannot enter IMC, as you are aware it is not IFR certified (no lightning protection).
Click to expand...

C-1 PILOT said:
Trust me it can be done and it is legal. I know several who got trained in a C-1 and got their ticket in it AND from an FAA examiner, not a DE.
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... was right. Though he didn't ever provide a definitive reference, he was right and I finally did find a definitive reference: The FAA's 8900.1, specifically, Volume 5, Chapter 2, Section 9:

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, §§ 91.109, 91.205, and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413. An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.
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So - Despite the fact that the DA20 is not IFR certified, apparently the FAA feels that it IS allowable to operate the DA20 under IFR in VMC for training purposes.

Very interesting, and certainly muddies the water on that whole "VMC-only instrument rating" discussion we had recently.

Also, shows that what we think we collectively "know" as a group is not always correct, and that the one lone voice who gets beat up on may well be correct. It's still good to actually find these definitive references, though! :yes:
 
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Kudos to Kent for finding the reference! I actually had this discussion just the other day while I was getting my initial DA-20 checkout.

The helicopter training community has known this regulatory provision for a long time. Thank God, because the cheapest helicopter approved for IMC is around $1000/hr. How do we get away with getting instrument ratings in the diminutive and cheap Schweizers and Robinsons? By filing "No IMC" on the IFR Flight Plans.

Regarding the DA20-A1... the Rotax powered birds preceded the Continental ones. People at the time were apprehensive about the "snowmobile" motors with 800 hour TBOs. Since then, thanks to the LSA movement, Rotax has a much improved reputation and a 2000 hour TBO. There are some operating idiosyncrasies for the people used to the Continentals and Lycomings. Here's a good video highlighting a few:

(my post count isn't high enough for a link.. search Avweb Rotax 912 at YouTube)

I wouldn't have a problem with the A1 nowadays. A good, cheap bird that flies like a dream.

-Nick S
ATP - AMEL, ASEL
CFI - AME, ASE, RH, IA, IH
Comm - ASES, RH, Glider
 
AirplaneIt said:
Kudos to Kent for finding the reference! I actually had this discussion just the other day while I was getting my initial DA-20 checkout.

Regarding the DA20-A1... the Rotax powered birds preceded the Continental ones. People at the time were apprehensive about the "snowmobile" motors with 800 hour TBOs. Since then, thanks to the LSA movement, Rotax has a much improved reputation and a 2000 hour TBO. There are some operating idiosyncrasies for the people used to the Continentals and Lycomings. Here's a good video highlighting a few:

(my post count isn't high enough for a link.. search Avweb Rotax 912 at YouTube)

I wouldn't have a problem with the A1 nowadays. A good, cheap bird that flies like a dream.

-Nick S
ATP - AMEL, ASEL
CFI - AME, ASE, RH, IA, IH
Comm - ASES, RH, Glider
Click to expand...
I think some models of the DA20 have an overheating problem. If you want more information about any Diamond aircraft you can go to one of the Diamond specific forums including DAN Diamond Aviators Network or DAA Diamond Aviators Association. DAA charges $50 per year, Diamond Aviators net is free.
 
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