DFW to San Diego in July. Keeping pax from melting?

[Fearless Tower]

So, we are planning an epic cross country family trip this summer: Norfolk, VA to San Diego. It just so happens that the price of airfare for a family of 4 is within $100 of the cost of fuel for the Baron to make the trip. And by flying GA, we can visit my wife's brothers and the nieces in Greenville, TX on the way.

I have done this trip myself a few times, but this will be the longest family plane trip we've done.

So here is what I'm looking for: ideas on how to minimize melting my family flying between The DFW area and San Diego. Looking for good airport restaurants/FBOs etc.

Here are the entering arguments:
Expect to be operating at Max Gross (maybe 100 lbs under). That includes enough fuel for 2.5 hr legs with sufficient reserves at 175 KTAS.

I figure a morning departure from GVT, but not sure what the best route is.

If we go north, I was thinking stopping at Tucumcari first which leaves one more stop in Northern AZ before CA. Problem with the northern route is that while ground temps will be more bearable for the family, I'll be looking at an afternoon departure from a high DA airport at gross wt. The Baron has the performance to pull it off as long as both engines are turning, but we'd definitely be above the SE ceiling.

If we go south, we'll have the SE performance, but the family will roast on the ground. I grew up flying in the Phoenix area and know how hot it gets in July. It doesn't bother me, but I know my wife won't find it as enjoyable as I do.

 

[N747JB]

I would seriously consider departing at dawn! The family will still be on Eastern time, so 6:00 AM won't feel so early to their body clocks. We stopped in Oklahoma a couple years ago en route to Colorado Springs for lunch in July. In a 421 with air conditioning, it took an hour at 16,000 for everyone to stop sweating. Maybe try to get a hangar if you stop for lunch, a heat soaked airplane is tough to cool off.

 

[flyingron]

27K: Atlanta Center, Navion 5327K, request higher.
ZTL: What altitude would you like?
27K: Something cooler than where we are now.
ZTL: Climb and maintain 70 degrees, advise what altitude that is.

 

[Geico266]

I like to launch before sunrise. Not sure your family would appreciate that, but watching the sun come up is pretty amazing at altitude.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I would seriously consider departing at dawn! The family will still be on Eastern time, so 6:00 AM won't feel so early to their body clocks. We stopped in Oklahoma a couple years ago en route to Colorado Springs for lunch in July. In a 421 with air conditioning, it took an hour at 16,000 for everyone to stop sweating. Maybe try to get a hangar if you stop for lunch, a heat soaked airplane is tough to cool off.

That is a good thought. If I can keep the load down enough to carry sufficient fuel to make GVT to ELP non- stop early AM, it might work well.

 

[ZeroPapaGolf]

Do you have room for one of those ice chest air conditioner things? Though that would eat up the rest of your useful load.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

 

[Ted]

I would definitely consider an ice chest unit for cooling the cabin. Otherwise, I've never had any issues with takeoff performance in a twin. Definitely keep runways 4,000+ ft in the higher elevations and take off.

Sounds like it'll be an awesome trip!

 

[Scott@KTYR]

A few years ago I flew from Tyler (next door to Greenville) to Vegas on May 1. We did the Northern route past Albuquerque. Wheels up by 7AM. An hour before Albq. the ride turned very rough and stayed that way until Vegas. I will never fly this route in the summer again!!!

Edit for spelling

 

[saracelica]

I purchased some battery operated fans which are nice. Some at Walmart have misting spray. So that may be enjoyable as well. If you get an early departure they'll be sleeping. Just as long as you don't sleep.

 

[AggieMike88]

Early dawn departure, ice box coolers, and small portable misting fans all great ideas.

I'll add using FBO's that have "business jet" level service, including portable a/c they can duct into your cabin. Combine that with "in hangar" overnights and you'll be nice and cool until you get to altitude.

If you passing through D/FW, KDTO with Business Air and US Aviation are good places to overnight.

And let us know when you're coming through so the DFW gang can plan a dinner with ya.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Early dawn departure, ice box coolers, and small portable misting fans all great ideas.



I'll add using FBO's that have "business jet" level service, including portable a/c they can duct into your cabin. Combine that with "in hangar" overnights and you'll be nice and cool until you get to altitude.



If you passing through D/FW, KDTO with Business Air and US Aviation are good places to overnight.



And let us know when you're coming through so the DFW gang can plan a dinner with ya.

If we pull this trip off we'll be overnighting at GVT. That us a definite. Both of my Brothers-in-law work for L3, so we'll be stating with family, but I'll keep ya'll in mind next time I make the trip solo (probably in the fall).

 

[deltaindia]

I'll be looking at an afternoon departure from a high DA airport at gross wt. The Baron has the performance to pull it off as long as both engines are turning, but we'd definitely be above the SE ceiling.

This is not a risk I would take, and definitely not with family on board....

 

[dell30rb]

The Ice Box coolers work.

I built my own for about $150 in parts. However there is a company that sells one for $300 - B-kool. Since it took me about 7-8 hours total to shop for the parts and build the thing, probably just should have bought one.

 

[comanchepilot]

it's amazing how expensive air fare is now . . . .my wife wanted to go from SoCal to Moline the weekend before July 4th for her class reunion . . . $838. It would cost me less in fuel for 2 to fly myself the 1400nm.

We want to be iin Boston for the 4th this year - $675 for tickets - thats outrageous.

 

[Fearless Tower]

it's amazing how expensive air fare is now . . . .my wife wanted to go from SoCal to Moline the weekend before July 4th for her class reunion . . . $838. It would cost me less in fuel for 2 to fly myself the 1400nm.



We want to be iin Boston for the 4th this year - $675 for tickets - thats outrageous.

Exactly. The Baron is actually been paying off. We just went to Atlanta this past weekend. It was actually $100 cheaper per person to fly ourselves (and in that case quicker too).

 

[brywd]

I've made the crossing several times, most in April, but different years and the temps were already almost to extreme to be worth flying GA.

On one trip going from West to East we were pounded beginning around Palm Springs and it didn't stop until I diverted into Pecos, TX and the folks that run the FBO sat us in front of an air conditioner and gave us wet rags and ice to help us cool down. There were times on that leg when I was flying nose high at around 90 knots to hold altitude, and others where we were screaming along. The turbulence was just horrible. My typical scenario is to depart in the morning about 30 minutes before sunup and try to get across the desert before it gets to hot, but is a race that we usually lose.

One year when we landed at St. John's Arizona for gas I was talking to a man while gassing my plane as his wife was in the restroom vomiting from the severe air sickness brought on the by desert heat and bumps. She came out green, got into the plane and off they went. He was going as far as Missouri that day and asked if we wanted to tag along in a gaggle of sorts. We overnighted and left early the next morning instead. Figured that pressing on at a time like that is when I'd loose my wife's interest in traveling with me so we used one of their old police cruisers that are repurposed as loaner cars and got ourselves a room.

Another year we stopped in Tennessee to pick up my niece and bring her back to CA with us to visit her grandparents. The day before we left I took her to the store and bought her some chewable motion sickness pills. Well she didn't use them and after getting pounded over the Texas Panhandle she became sick about an hour before we reached Double Eagle in Albuquerque. She ruined the bag in my seatback where we keep our oxygen canulas. Fortunately she got them out first. The combination of the heat, bumps, and smell then got me as well. I landed at Double Eagle as green as could be.

2.5 hour legs are going to make this tough as you won't be able to keep going when the air is still cool and calm early in the day. If it were me I'd go way South, like around El Paso to Chandler in Phoenix or something similar. Much lower elevations and smoother. Even better would be to do all the flying at night. The problem with that is fuel, and finding somewhere that is open for food or restrooms.

The two times when I crossed the deserts of Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona later than April both were horrific. Once was coming home from the Dallas area in mid May after having my Van's RV painted. At 10,500' near Lubbock it was over 100 degrees F. We stopped at a small airport and had a burger and soda and then pressed on. Big mistake. It got hotter as we headed West.

Another year I flew home from Osh to San Jose, CA in one day after attending Airventure. On this one I went by way of Nebraska, crossed at Salt Lake with a stop at Wendover, and then across the Nevada desert with a stop at Elko just after entering Nevada. After departing Osh at around 8 am we landed at home around 8:30 pm. This was around July 28th or so, and it was hot. The RV liked to fly high, and had a 1,900 fpm climb, but I struggled to be able to cross some of the mountain ranges with it that day. It was grueling and we made the decision that day to get something more comfortable after spending 3 1/2 years building the RV.

Long winded I know, but I hope this helps you. I personally wouldn't do this to my family in July. You know your family though, mine don't like flying enough to put them through this. Of course all of our trips were not miserable, but several were as described above. In July I can't imagine conditions being even as good as the worst of days that we did it earlier in the season. Keep us posted, I'd love to follow along as you update your progress on this trip.

 

[Hocky]

I've made the crossing several times, most in April, but different years and the temps were already almost to extreme to be worth flying GA.

On one trip going from West to East we were pounded beginning around Palm Springs and it didn't stop until I diverted into Pecos, TX and the folks that run the FBO sat us in front of an air conditioner and gave us wet rags and ice to help us cool down. There were times on that leg when I was flying nose high at around 90 knots to hold altitude, and others where we were screaming along. The turbulence was just horrible. My typical scenario is to depart in the morning about 30 minutes before sunup and try to get across the desert before it gets to hot, but is a race that we usually lose.

One year when we landed at St. John's Arizona for gas I was talking to a man while gassing my plane as his wife was in the restroom vomiting from the severe air sickness brought on the by desert heat and bumps. She came out green, got into the plane and off they went. He was going as far as Missouri that day and asked if we wanted to tag along in a gaggle of sorts. We overnighted and left early the next morning instead. Figured that pressing on at a time like that is when I'd loose my wife's interest in traveling with me so we used one of their old police cruisers that are repurposed as loaner cars and got ourselves a room.

Another year we stopped in Tennessee to pick up my niece and bring her back to CA with us to visit her grandparents. The day before we left I took her to the store and bought her some chewable motion sickness pills. Well she didn't use them and after getting pounded over the Texas Panhandle she became sick about an hour before we reached Double Eagle in Albuquerque. She ruined the bag in my seatback where we keep our oxygen canulas. Fortunately she got them out first. The combination of the heat, bumps, and smell then got me as well. I landed at Double Eagle as green as could be.

2.5 hour legs are going to make this tough as you won't be able to keep going when the air is still cool and calm early in the day. If it were me I'd go way South, like around El Paso to Chandler in Phoenix or something similar. Much lower elevations and smoother. Even better would be to do all the flying at night. The problem with that is fuel, and finding somewhere that is open for food or restrooms.

The two times when I crossed the deserts of Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona later than April both were horrific. Once was coming home from the Dallas area in mid May after having my Van's RV painted. At 10,500' near Lubbock it was over 100 degrees F. We stopped at a small airport and had a burger and soda and then pressed on. Big mistake. It got hotter as we headed West.

Another year I flew home from Osh to San Jose, CA in one day after attending Airventure. On this one I went by way of Nebraska, crossed at Salt Lake with a stop at Wendover, and then across the Nevada desert with a stop at Elko just after entering Nevada. After departing Osh at around 8 am we landed at home around 8:30 pm. This was around July 28th or so, and it was hot. The RV liked to fly high, and had a 1,900 fpm climb, but I struggled to be able to cross some of the mountain ranges with it that day. It was grueling and we made the decision that day to get something more comfortable after spending 3 1/2 years building the RV.

Long winded I know, but I hope this helps you. I personally wouldn't do this to my family in July. You know your family though, mine don't like flying enough to put them through this. Of course all of our trips were not miserable, but several were as described above. In July I can't imagine conditions being even as good as the worst of days that we did it earlier in the season. Keep us posted, I'd love to follow along as you update your progress on this trip.

That sounds awful! You have to be really dedicated to want to fly to endure that kind of punishment.

 

[brywd]

Yeah, when it was bad it was bad, but I love flying enough to get up a couple of hours before the birds do for trips like this. By 10am over the desert the flying time is already over as far as I'm concerned.

Sometimes when we are leaving to go East we'll go to Laughlin and get a cheap room so that we can have a strategic starting point for the desert crossing. Again, airborne before sunup and we'll go high to stay cool. I like 13,500' for a good ride and to take advantage of the tailwinds.

Doing this we are good to St. John's, Arizona and mostly as far as Albuquerque, but from there to Texas is always bad. 13,500' isn't always high enough to fix the ride, and it is a very hard climb to even get up there with the heat by this time of the day. Going West the headwinds rule out the higher altitudes.

Thinking back, an ice box cooler would certainly help, but on the days when temps are pushing 100F at 10,000' the ice would be long since melted before getting to the next stop.

Crud, I sound like an old lady here. FWIW we still keep doing the crossing if a vacation is worth doing.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I've made the crossing several times, most in April, but different years and the temps were already almost to extreme to be worth flying GA.



On one trip going from West to East we were pounded beginning around Palm Springs and it didn't stop until I diverted into Pecos, TX and the folks that run the FBO sat us in front of an air conditioner and gave us wet rags and ice to help us cool down. There were times on that leg when I was flying nose high at around 90 knots to hold altitude, and others where we were screaming along. The turbulence was just horrible. My typical scenario is to depart in the morning about 30 minutes before sunup and try to get across the desert before it gets to hot, but is a race that we usually lose.



One year when we landed at St. John's Arizona for gas I was talking to a man while gassing my plane as his wife was in the restroom vomiting from the severe air sickness brought on the by desert heat and bumps. She came out green, got into the plane and off they went. He was going as far as Missouri that day and asked if we wanted to tag along in a gaggle of sorts. We overnighted and left early the next morning instead. Figured that pressing on at a time like that is when I'd loose my wife's interest in traveling with me so we used one of their old police cruisers that are repurposed as loaner cars and got ourselves a room.



Another year we stopped in Tennessee to pick up my niece and bring her back to CA with us to visit her grandparents. The day before we left I took her to the store and bought her some chewable motion sickness pills. Well she didn't use them and after getting pounded over the Texas Panhandle she became sick about an hour before we reached Double Eagle in Albuquerque. She ruined the bag in my seatback where we keep our oxygen canulas. Fortunately she got them out first. The combination of the heat, bumps, and smell then got me as well. I landed at Double Eagle as green as could be.



2.5 hour legs are going to make this tough as you won't be able to keep going when the air is still cool and calm early in the day. If it were me I'd go way South, like around El Paso to Chandler in Phoenix or something similar. Much lower elevations and smoother. Even better would be to do all the flying at night. The problem with that is fuel, and finding somewhere that is open for food or restrooms.



The two times when I crossed the deserts of Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona later than April both were horrific. Once was coming home from the Dallas area in mid May after having my Van's RV painted. At 10,500' near Lubbock it was over 100 degrees F. We stopped at a small airport and had a burger and soda and then pressed on. Big mistake. It got hotter as we headed West.



Another year I flew home from Osh to San Jose, CA in one day after attending Airventure. On this one I went by way of Nebraska, crossed at Salt Lake with a stop at Wendover, and then across the Nevada desert with a stop at Elko just after entering Nevada. After departing Osh at around 8 am we landed at home around 8:30 pm. This was around July 28th or so, and it was hot. The RV liked to fly high, and had a 1,900 fpm climb, but I struggled to be able to cross some of the mountain ranges with it that day. It was grueling and we made the decision that day to get something more comfortable after spending 3 1/2 years building the RV.



Long winded I know, but I hope this helps you. I personally wouldn't do this to my family in July. You know your family though, mine don't like flying enough to put them through this. Of course all of our trips were not miserable, but several were as described above. In July I can't imagine conditions being even as good as the worst of days that we did it earlier in the season. Keep us posted, I'd love to follow along as you update your progress on this trip.

I believe you, but got to say that it sounds like you've had some really bad luck. Like I said earlier, I've done this trip myself a few tines and several trips between CA and TX and have experienced a genuine mix of misery and smooth (albeit hot) flying.

That said, we are starting to lean toward taking the aluminum tube. My wife is feeling a little uneasy about it and I am afraid that if I do force the trip....it could ruin any hope for future trips with the family.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

When I flew that trip in my A-36; then in the P baron, I would either stop in El Paso or Las Cruces (LRU). El Paso had more services and restaurants near by; LRU had cheaper fuel and a restaurant on the field.
As I proceeded west, I would use Yuma if I needed to stop again. Long runways, good FBOs and a place to eat if needed.
Hope you have a great trip. Afternoon winds going into San Diego can be turbulent as you get to the mountains along V-66. The approaches to KSEE and Montgomery Field come off that airway.
The departure procedures can be confusing the first couple times, but I see you've been there before.

Best,

Dave

 

[Fearless Tower]

Afternoon winds going into San Diego can be turbulent as you get to the mountains along V-66. The approaches to KSEE and Montgomery Field come off that airway.
The departure procedures can be confusing the first couple times, but I see you've been there before.

Best,

Dave

Before this current tour we lived in San Diego for 5 years (kept my plane at MYF). So I'm pretty comfortable with that part.

 

[ActiveAir]

I've flown SoCal to KS & IL, about 4 times with family (wife and two teens) in our SE Comanche 260B. I usually do it with only one stop. I plan to be past NM by 11:00am, either direction.

I have an Artic Air cooler that works great, XM wx for planning along the way, and an O2 system. I would not fly across the desert, esp. NM in the afternoon. On most flights, I have had to climb to between 13,500 and 16,000', but the air was smooth up there, above the buildups. Once, I had to divert about 75 miles south. Otherwise, it's a nice trip. I would do it, and will do it with family again.

My family does a good job of tolerating turbulence.

Make the trip. It will be worth it.

 

[dans2992]

I've flown SoCal to KS & IL, about 4 times with family (wife and two teens) in our SE Comanche 260B. I usually do it with only one stop. I plan to be past NM by 11:00am, either direction.

I have an Artic Air cooler that works great, XM wx for planning along the way, and an O2 system. I would not fly across the desert, esp. NM in the afternoon. On most flights, I have had to climb to between 13,500 and 16,000', but the air was smooth up there, above the buildups. Once, I had to divert about 75 miles south. Otherwise, it's a nice trip. I would do it, and will do it with family again.

My family does a good job of tolerating turbulence.

Make the trip. It will be worth it.

How old were the kids when you made this trip the first time?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Before this current tour we lived in San Diego for 5 years (kept my plane at MYF). So I'm pretty comfortable with that part.

Great! I used to go into KSEE every couple months to see my Dad. He's since past, so, haven't gone as often. My A-36 was TN and the P Baron was pressurized, so, I usually went in the low flight levels. Was always interesting when they started bringing me down on the way in. It could go from cool and smooth to hot and bumpy pretty fast. Only went into Montgomery and International a couple times, but they were also off the same Victor airway, just turned right a bit later (g).
Hope you have a great trip.

Those climbing turn DPs were a bit of a challenge the first couple times I did them. At KSEE we had to do a climbing right turn off 27 and intercept the Mission Bay radial inbound to the VOR if no com. If So Cal picked us up, opposite direction on the same radial got us on V-66 to the east. Easy if So Cal makes contact; a bit more challenging if they don't (g). Of course, Montgomery had the ILS, but it had to be essentially VFR to get into KSEE on the loc D.

Best,

Dave

 

[ActiveAir]

How old were the kids when you made this trip the first time?

Son 16, daughter 12

 

[dans2992]

Son 16, daughter 12

OK, yeah that makes sense. I've got a daughter - 4 years old, and my wife says it's too long a trip to do in one day...

 

[Insane]

That said, we are starting to lean toward taking the aluminum tube.

Good man! What is that expression about old fearless pilots? Something about there not being many of those...

 

[ActiveAir]

We are talking about a twin engine Baron, right? Isn' t GA flying rule#1 - have flexible schedule for wx. #2 - most flights involve turbulence of some sort at some time.

If you fly commercial, I promise that you will still experience turbulence that overly sensitive flyers will still have problems with, especially if you go through Denver.

I'm looking at flying my SE Comanche from CA to SC this summer, with stops in KS and IL. Guess I must be crazy. I fly mostly in the SW all summer long, all year long. Guess I've built a higher tolerance to wind and turb. I'm missing where the fear in this is supposed to be. Now t-storms and tornadoes scare me, but both are easy to avoid.

As for kids, take a portable DVD player or ipad with games and they won't notice anything. Finally, they'll look at how you respond to turb as to how they respond. If you get nervous, they'll get nervous. If you don't show outward concern, then they learn to deal with it. The air at altitude is not horribly hot. The ground time can be hot, but that's why I have an Article Air.

Understand when and where turb is likely and how to minimize your exposure and go have a great trip and create memories that you'll never have flying commercial. Why else would you ever own a plane?

 

[danhagan]

I've made the crossing several times, most in April, but different years and the temps were already almost to extreme to be worth flying GA.

The two times when I crossed the deserts of Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona later than April both were horrific. Once was coming home from the Dallas area in mid May after having my Van's RV painted. At 10,500' near Lubbock it was over 100 degrees F. We stopped at a small airport and had a burger and soda and then pressed on. Big mistake. It got hotter as we headed West.

Wow! You paint a dismall picture ... and inaccurate as well. Here's mine, NOT in April. Depart El Paso 2 PM in afternoon with 105* ground temp. Climb to 10500 and cool off ... not 65* degrees, but maybe 80. Land Marana AZ and refuel, depart there and cross near Blythe Az which had ground temp of 120* (still not sweating it out). I live in this area and fly XC often ... no way were you at 100* at 10500.

When I flew that trip in my A-36; then in the P baron, I would either stop in El Paso or Las Cruces (LRU). El Paso had more services and restaurants near by; LRU had cheaper fuel and a restaurant on the field.
Dave

They went out of business ...

 

[Insane]

We are talking about a twin engine Baron, right? Isn' t GA flying rule#1 - have flexible schedule for wx. #2 - most flights involve turbulence of some sort at some time.

If you fly commercial, I promise that you will still experience turbulence that overly sensitive flyers will still have problems with, especially if you go through Denver.

I'm looking at flying my SE Comanche from CA to SC this summer, with stops in KS and IL. Guess I must be crazy. I fly mostly in the SW all summer long, all year long. Guess I've built a higher tolerance to wind and turb. I'm missing where the fear in this is supposed to be. Now t-storms and tornadoes scare me, but both are easy to avoid.

As for kids, take a portable DVD player or ipad with games and they won't notice anything. Finally, they'll look at how you respond to turb as to how they respond. If you get nervous, they'll get nervous. If you don't show outward concern, then they learn to deal with it. The air at altitude is not horribly hot. The ground time can be hot, but that's why I have an Article Air.

Understand when and where turb is likely and how to minimize your exposure and go have a great trip and create memories that you'll never have flying commercial. Why else would you ever own a plane?

There is nothing shameful about being scared to make a trip.

 

[Martymccasland]

it's amazing how expensive air fare is now . . . .my wife wanted to go from SoCal to Moline the weekend before July 4th for her class reunion . . . $838. It would cost me less in fuel for 2 to fly myself the 1400nm.

We want to be iin Boston for the 4th this year - $675 for tickets - thats outrageous.

Exactly.

Around 10 years ago I'd get on Expedia and Southwest.com and calculate how much of premium we were paying flying our plane over commercial. It rarely was more expensive than buying 100LL. Frequently, there'd be at least a $400 or so "tax" using the plane vs. commercial. ( Heck, I remember roundtrip Paris / London being $400-$500.)

In the last few years, it helps me feel better about owning a plane. The cheapest tickets I see for trips we routinely take are $400/person -- and that's buying 14+ days in advance and being locked in. For that amount of money times 4-5, we can fly the Bonanza quite a distance -- especially LOP.

A few years ago my wife and girls went to Disney by themselves for a dance competition. Instead of me flying them, they bought "cheap" Southwest tickets from here in Little Rock to Orlando. It was still $1000 for the 3 of them. But the worst problem, according to them, was traveling literally all day long coming and going. Coming in they change through St. Louis, get to Orlando, then take about 2.5 to finally get to the hotel via the Disney Express busses -- around 13 hours door to door. Leaving, Disney wants you in the lobby no less than 3 hours prior to departure -- then they connect through Baltimore -- again about 13 hours. As a cherry on top, my youngest 7 year old girl at the time comes back and says, "Daddy, they can't land those planes as softly as you can. I like it when you're flying better."

We do it again this year with me coming along. Roundtrip fuel bill (just topping off here and in Orlando -- both places a good $1.50 above what I could pay by making a stop at some rural field) was $680. Flight time: 3:55 going, 4:10 coming home. Wheels-down in Orlando to being in our Disney hotel: 25 mins (car service waiting with the line boy on the ramp, AC going, and ready to shuttle bags)... My wife went on and on about how she'd pay $500 more to get this kind of service -- but we ended up paying about $750 less by using the plane... (Covers about 1-2 meals at Disney. )

Add in that our trips are usually planned on a Thursday evening after seeing if the weather at our destination is good (Who wants to go to the beach/festival/amusement park/etc. if it's going to be thunderstorms all weekend?), and I can't see being able to plan 14+ day advanced purchases and it working out... So that drives the cost up way, way more buying close-in tickets.

All in all, it really is surprising the cost of flying GA with $6-8 100LL is routinely less than even advanced-purchase, online-only, coach fares these days... Plus way, way more fun and flexible.

 

[catmandu]

it's amazing how expensive air fare is now . . . .my wife wanted to go from SoCal to Moline the weekend before July 4th for her class reunion . . . $838. It would cost me less in fuel for 2 to fly myself the 1400nm.

We want to be iin Boston for the 4th this year - $675 for tickets - thats outrageous.

Amazing? Outrageous? What was the comparable hourly billing rate for your services in 1978 compared to today?

You want to talk about ridiculous price increases, limes were 20 cents this time last year. Just paid 79 cents each last night! Just how is one supposed to exercise one's God given right to Margarita manufacturing with costs like those? Time to cut back on the huggies for the kids, let 'em roam bottomless around the back yard for a while . . .

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If we go north, I was thinking stopping at Tucumcari first which leaves one more stop in Northern AZ before CA. Problem with the northern route is that while ground temps will be more bearable for the family, I'll be looking at an afternoon departure from a high DA airport at gross wt. The Baron has the performance to pull it off as long as both engines are turning, but we'd definitely be above the SE ceiling.

Make your Arizona stop in Sedona then. Excellent restaurant. Operationally, just use P52 as a takeoff alternate. KSEZ is on top of a big rock, so terrain in the immediate vicinity goes down in all directions. If you can keep your descent gradient to less than 90'/nm on one (about 180fpm down at Vyse+10 for you at those altitudes) you should be able to make it safely, and since you should be right around your single-engine service ceiling there on a hot day, I'd think you should be able to do better than -180fpm. Of course, YMMV and you know your airplane... But that's the first thought I had for a good stop in N. AZ.

 

[Everskyward]

Interesting how when people compare the cost of flying themselves to the airlines they only include the cost of fuel rather than the all-in cost.

 

[flyingron]

Because pretty much fuel is the only decision maker. I pay the insurance, hangar rent, capital costs, annual mx, etc... whether I fly my plane or take the airline. I'm not trying to justify whether buying the plane was an economic plus, just whether I should fly myself or commercial given I already maintain the plane.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Interesting how when people compare the cost of flying themselves to the airlines they only include the cost of fuel rather than the all-in cost.

It depends a lot on how you are looking at it. If you are doing a cost analysis for buying a personal airplane for the purpose of making trips in lieu of the airlines, you have to include all costs; fixed and variable to get a realistic comparison. I have no delusions that if I can beat the airlines using my true hourly costs.

But, I didn't buy the airplane for this trip. I bought my airplane for time building, pleasure flying and short trips with family. Whether I make this trip or not, I'm going to own the airplane and pay those fixed costs, all of which are already budgeted for.

So, when I look at airfare for a family of 4 and I see how high it is, I start thinking....it's going to cost the same for fuel and I can use flight hours I have already budgeted for. Makes sense to me, but you have to understand what you are comparing.

 

[N747JB]

Interesting how when people compare the cost of flying themselves to the airlines they only include the cost of fuel rather than the all-in cost.

But, we don't add the frustration cost of flying commercial either, you know blood pressure meds STC.
When I am comparing airline vs me flying, I use business class tickets, because that's what I normally book. Other than odd meeting times, or west coast trips, I try to justify flying myself, even if it means using "fuzzy" math.

 

[Everskyward]

It depends a lot on how you are looking at it. If you are doing a cost analysis for buying a personal airplane for the purpose of making trips in lieu of the airlines, you have to include all costs; fixed and variable to get a realistic comparison. I have no delusions that if I can beat the airlines using my true hourly costs.

But, I didn't buy the airplane for this trip. I bought my airplane for time building, pleasure flying and short trips with family. Whether I make this trip or not, I'm going to own the airplane and pay those fixed costs, all of which are already budgeted for.

So, when I look at airfare for a family of 4 and I see how high it is, I start thinking....it's going to cost the same for fuel and I can use flight hours I have already budgeted for. Makes sense to me, but you have to understand what you are comparing.

I get what you and others are saying but I have never owned, and there's no way I have ever been able to justify it. I can buy many, many airline tickets for the cost of buying and supporting an airplane, especially one which would do the trips I do on the airlines.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I get what you and others are saying but I have never owned, and there's no way I have ever been able to justify it. I can buy many, many airline tickets for the cost of buying and supporting an airplane, especially one which would do the trips I do on the airlines.

Completely understand. Ownership is not for everybody....spoken as I dread listening to the voicemail from my IA (started the annual on the Baron this week)

 

[dans2992]

Most of us can't financially "justify" owning the plane. We do it because we enjoy it.