determining the cost to rent.

Tom-D

Tom-D

Taxi to Parking
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Tom-D
how would one go about setting the cost to rent your aircraft.

Say I wanted to allow pilots with a PPL and conventional gear sign offs to rent my 24, how would you go about setting that cost?
 
Can you even get insurance to do so?

How much will the insurance go up if they have low hours in conventional gear?

The simple trite answer is: Your costs plus desired profit. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Can you even get insurance to do so?

How much will the insurance go up if they have low hours in conventional gear?

The simple trite answer is: Your costs plus desired profit. ;)
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the renter will be required to provide rental insurance with me as insured.
 
I know some polices do allow you to add renters. There's a 182 here that I am thinking about renting and the guy told me his policy allows up to three renters on the policy. Now I don't know if the policy actually says 'renters' or it's just additional insureds, but that how he put it to me.
 
If you can't find a cfi to check you out, how you gonna find one to check them out?
 
figure out how many hours of renting it will take before someone wrecks it. divide that number of hours into how much it will cost to rebuild it plus how much money you want to make.
 
Is this your new plan to recover your money in the current market? Let someone else wreck it so that you can collect on the hull?
 
tonycondon said:
figure out how many hours of renting it will take before someone wrecks it. divide that number of hours into how much it will cost to rebuild it plus how much money you want to make.
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:D That sounds about right!
But I hope the resulting figures don't put you off, Tom- it would be a very cool and rare thing. That would make three pre-1950 taildraggers I know of that are available for solo rental anywhere... and of course the only Fairchild 24. It would probably be a fairly high hourly rate, but I think interested parties would be happy to pay it.

But are we even talking about solo rental? If so, you might consider requiring a checkout, regardless of what the insurance requires. Your typical customer would most likely be someone who's never flown something like that.
 
The simplest way is to find comparable models being rented out in your area, take the average of their hourly prices, and use that number to start.
 
Jim Logajan said:
The simplest way is to find comparable models being rented out in your area, take the average of their hourly prices, and use that number to start.
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One correction: start with a rental price on the high side. An old rule-of-sales I learned years ago was that it is better, for psychological reasons, to err on the high side and adjust prices downward than trying to raise prices.
 
Tom, here is how I used to figure it out when I had a flight school. I used 30 hours per month flight time for my monthly expenses.

Monthly expenses
Hangar pro rata: (cost of hangar/number of planes)/30
Insurance cost: cost/30
Note payment/30

Per hour costs:
Fuel
Mx reserve
Engine reserve

Fudge factor.

Then add it all up and that was my per hour wet rental rate.

Good luck.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Is this your new plan to recover your money in the current market? Let someone else wreck it so that you can collect on the hull?
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Gotta remember that the insurance companies are the only ones paying full price for aircraft these days.

But thanks, now if I do have an accident, you know what every one will think. :)
 
I should turn the question around and simply how much would you pay to fly it?
 
denverpilot said:
There are no comparable models to his bird.
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There should at least be airplanes that rent out that have comparable fixed costs. The idea is to figure out at least what the market has found the optimum point on the price demand curve for airplanes with similar costs.

If that is too abstract, how about trying $140/hr and see if anyone bites?
 
Tom-D said:
how would one go about setting the cost to rent your aircraft.

Say I wanted to allow pilots with a PPL and conventional gear sign offs to rent my 24, how would you go about setting that cost?
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It will only work if you go bare and rely on their renters insurance coverage. After that, it shouldn't be too bad for you since you control your maintenance cost. Figure the fuel, or better maybe to rent it dry so they econo power rather than renter power. This is where it is good to have a recording analyzer so you have a record of how people are operating your plane so you have an idea how much engine maintenance you're gonna need to charge for. Sorry, I have no reference for hourly operating cost and overhaul setback, but I'd say you'd be pretty safe at $50 hr if you show them how to best operate. My deal that I was gonna make is that if people operated the way I told them to, the cylinders would be on me. If they operated in another fashion, cylinders were on them. All the rest engine wise was figured into my hourly $110hr engine&prop setback and estimated average repairs (currently way under, but need/want to spend most of it). Airframe setback? If you are self insuring your own position you need to start banking against the piece of damage that has been sliding for 6 months, so what, figure it like an engine, $27hr? Although the reality for you is it will be much less because you can repair your airframe and fabric pretty reasonably so what you figure there is up to you to determine.

Whatever you decide it to be and you decide to rent, let me know. I'd love to rent it from you for some PNW cruising. If it had a Jake and floats... you would so have a long term renter. ;):yesnod:
 
Henning said:
It will only work if you go bare and rely on their renters insurance coverage. After that, it shouldn't be too bad for you since you control your maintenance cost. Figure the fuel, or better maybe to rent it dry so they econo power rather than renter power. This is where it is good to have a recording analyzer so you have a record of how people are operating your plane so you have an idea how much engine maintenance you're gonna need to charge for. Sorry, I have no reference for hourly operating cost and overhaul setback, but I'd say you'd be pretty safe at $50 hr if you show them how to best operate. My deal that I was gonna make is that if people operated the way I told them to, the cylinders would be on me. If they operated in another fashion, cylinders were on them. All the rest engine wise was figured into my hourly $110hr engine&prop setback and estimated average repairs (currently way under, but need/want to spend most of it). Airframe setback? If you are self insuring your own position you need to start banking against the piece of damage that has been sliding for 6 months, so what, figure it like an engine, $27hr? Although the reality for you is it will be much less because you can repair your airframe and fabric pretty reasonably so what you figure there is up to you to determine.

Whatever you decide it to be and you decide to rent, let me know. I'd love to rent it from you for some PNW cruising. If it had a Jake and floats... you would so have a long term renter. ;):yesnod:
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I figure about $250 per hour.

I do carry hull coverage, and liability to a million smooth. but it has no open pilot warrantee. Thats for me alone.

renters will provide their own coverage.
 
You want frank opinions on the price, so I'll be honest...

Your bird is a beautiful classic that anyone should be proud to have in their logbook. And that might be the problem.

There's piles of Cubs, Citabrias, and other conventional gear aircraft out there for people chasing a dream of getting a conventional endorsement to use (and probably beat up a bit, let's be honest). They're significantly cheaper to operate and maintain.

So, your market is old-timers who have been flying conventional since they were in short pants and younger guys with piles of money who love classic aircraft. It's a decidedly niche market unless you're the ONLY conventional gear aircraft for rent for many miles. If you are...

Then you're going to get students of conventional gear. And they're going to beat up your pride and joy. Luckily you're a mechanic so it might not break the bank.

I started flying in 1991. I know of less than one hand worth of fingers to count of people my age who went out of their way to fly a conventional gear aircraft. They all did it for other reasons, like aerobatics (Decathlon, Citabria, Pitts in one case), or just to say they had done it on a professional resume'.

I wouldn't trust myself in your classic airplane without a lot of instruction time in it. I'd chase the endorsement in something cheaper that I wouldn't be destroying history if I ground-looped it, ya know?

That's my honest answer. If you had a CFI who was teaching for the love of it and I lived nearby, $250/hr is still awfully steep to get feet connected to brain. I'd be looking for a glider or a cheaper conventional gear aircraft to rent to build that hand/eye coordination and muscle memory up in, before I'd call ya to get checked out at $250/hr in your bird.

I'd also need another "mission" in mind for the conventional sign off other than tooling around looking cool in your pretty bird. Perhaps a long term goal to tow gliders or building a conventional gear aircraft in the garage at home or planning to buy a nice conventional gear classic.

Fair enough? I hope the insight helps.
 
Tom-D said:
Gotta remember that the insurance companies are the only ones paying full price for aircraft these days.

But thanks, now if I do have an accident, you know what every one will think. :)
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Yeah, but you were the one who was talking about how tricky the F24 was to folks new to it.....so, if that is true, it seems like renting it out would almost guarantee it gets wrecked.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yeah, but you were the one who was talking about how tricky the F24 was to folks new to it.....so, if that is true, it seems like renting it out would almost guarantee it gets wrecked.
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With proper tutelage any one can get checked out, but to simply jump it and go, no.
 
Tom-D said:
I figure about $250 per hour.

I do carry hull coverage, and liability to a million smooth. but it has no open pilot warrantee. Thats for me alone.

renters will provide their own coverage.
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It is risky to have your own policy, that's the problem. You need to check with a very savvy insurance guy in your state, I'd be looking for one with an Esq, usually they'll answer a quick question like this for free. If there is NO insurance then the Renters Policy becomes primary. If there is another policy in effect on the aircraft, that may or may not be true. Thing is you may still be able to repair the damage for what they pay if you eat the labor.
 
Tom-D said:
I figure about $250 per hour.
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At that price you'll have limited response, but that may be perfect for you, I don't know. If you want it to do more rental business it'll probably have to be lower or consider reformatting to a club or partnership. If you want to make money, you'll probably have to get your CFI and offer tail wheel endorsements, mountain flying training, and other specialty premium courses that span a block of a weekend to a week and provide some scenic vacation time as well.
 
Henning said:
At that price you'll have limited response, but that may be perfect for you, I don't know.
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True. I can rent a Stearman for $250/hr.

I'd say only folks who really want to have F-24 time in their book will come.
 
Fearless Tower said:
True. I can rent a Stearman for $250/hr.

I'd say only folks who really want to have F-24 time in their book will come.
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Well, for that you can haul 25sm rides as a CP and you don't have to deal with rental and CFI and yada yada, so one can do that regardless at an attractive price point as a local attraction. It has similar appeal and costs to a Waco operation and they seem to get by. The F-24 would excel in taking couples or grandpa and grandson up in a plane from when grandpa was a kid on 1-2 hr flights; he's in a good area for it as well, especially with summer coming. Gotta check on insurance price though, you may be looking at a $9k nut, which if you can make it also opens up the viability of rental even further as you already have full ticket insurance.
 
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Henning said:
Well, for that you can haul 25sm rides as a CP and you don't have to deal with rental and CFI and yada yada, so one can do that regardless at an attractive price point as a local attraction. It has similar appeal and costs to a Waco operation and they seem to get by. The F-24 would excel in taking couples or grandpa and grandson up in a plane from when grandpa was a kid on 1-2 hr flights; he's in a good area for it as well, especially with summer coming. Gotta check on insurance price though, you may be looking at a $9k nut, which if you can make it also opens up the viability of rental even further as you already have full ticket insurance.
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Prohibitive start up costs.
 
Tom-D said:
Prohibitive start up costs.
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Yeah, the only way I managed to make it work is I had a great deal on a plane to use that was already commercially insured for what I did for the funeral director/owner; and I was in a Cherokee Six set up for Mile High rides. I just advertised in a couple party scene rags, start up next to nothing, some foam and bedding. It really only works as a side line or a full on investment operation.
 
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