Descent from Hold question.....

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Volitation, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. Volitation

    Volitation Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Messages:
    165
    Location:
    Double Oak, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Volitation
    The detail below is from the VOR/DME RWY 17 at KLUD, UKW is the VOR. My understanding of most of the approaches I’ve studied allow descent form the holding altitude once established inbound, but this depiction seems to indicate a later descent form the holding altitude to the crossing altitude.

    in this case it’s only 100’, but I’m unclear on what its telling me . I’ve seen this type shown elsewhere, but can’t find an explanation in either the Instrument Flying Handbook or the Instrument Procedures Handbook. I’d appreciate all help with explanations or other sources. Thanks!
    upload_2019-11-29_18-0-38.jpeg
     
  2. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,683
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    The minimum altitude outbound is 3,100. The minimum altitude inbound is 3,000 (until ENTUR).
     
    Volitation likes this.
  3. Volitation

    Volitation Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Messages:
    165
    Location:
    Double Oak, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Volitation
    So is it just a different method do drawing the picture than the example below?
    upload_2019-11-29_18-19-31.jpeg
     
  4. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    7,186
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    You can leave 3100 for 3000 when established inbound. The 'picture' doesn't always reflect exactly how it's going to happen. The 'artist' on this one maybe had a visual of what 'stabilized descent' would look like. Stay at 3100 until ready to begin an uninterrupted descent. If I can figure out how to do it I'll get the Jeppesen Chart for this approach here. The 'artist' on that one draws the bold line showing a 'dive and drive' type profile. It starts down way out there and levels off at 3000 until ENTUR.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
    Volitation likes this.
  5. Volitation

    Volitation Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Messages:
    165
    Location:
    Double Oak, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Volitation
    Thanks! Apparently, as usual, I’m overthinking it.
     
  6. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,683
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    Yes and no. The second picture is of a conventional procedure turn, the first is a hold-in-lieu-of-procedure-turn, so I suppose it's visualizing the idea that you might be holding. You would not want to descend below 3,100 inbound if you will be continuing to hold rather then proceeding with the approach.
     
  7. Volitation

    Volitation Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Messages:
    165
    Location:
    Double Oak, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Volitation
    Aha, you’re right! That explains the difference in the depiction, they’re showing the holding pattern altitude above the the descent path altitude. Depending on what you’re doing, you’re at a a different altitude over the same point on the ground.
     
  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    7,186
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Here's the Jeppesen plate

    3373F7B9-E61F-486E-871F-FF321A39E454.png
     
    Volitation likes this.
  9. Volitation

    Volitation Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Messages:
    165
    Location:
    Double Oak, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Volitation
    That makes it clear. I’ve stayed with the standard charts training to keep it simpler, but I may have to break down and go Jeppesen. Thanks!
     
  10. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    7,186
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Just depends on which you think looks cooler. They both say the same thing. Just use a different way of 'visually' depicting it. It's all about the 'numbers.'
     
    Zeldman, benyflyguy and Volitation like this.
  11. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,731
    Location:
    Iowa City, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    17
    What would be the ATC instructions?

    I’m guessing that when you enter the hold they’d say: “Maintain 3100 until established on the inbound, cleared for the VOR 17 approach.” — is that about right?
     
  12. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    7,186
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    No. Once you have the clearance and are established, you comply with the altitudes. They wouldn’t say that, or maintain 3000 until ENTUR, or 1800 until you see the airport.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  13. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,683
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    “Cleared direct ENTUR, maintain at or above 3,100 until ENTUR, cleared VOR/DME Runway 17 Approach.”

    Source: Order 7110.65Y p. 4-8-5:
    EXAMPLE− Aircraft 2 cannot be cleared direct to CENTR unless the aircraft is allowed to execute the hold-in-lieu of procedure turn. The intercept angle at that IF/IAF is greater than 90 degrees. The minimum altitude for IFR operations (14 CFR Section 91.177) along the flight path to the IAF is 3,000 feet. “Cleared direct CENTR, maintain at or above three thousand until CENTR, cleared RNAV Runway One-Eight approach.” The pilot is expected to proceed direct CENTR and execute the hold-in-lieu of procedure turn.


    If the procedure turn is not to be executed, and ATC clears the aircraft to the IAF rather than vectoring to a segment of the approach, ATC must specify "straight in" in the approach clearance.