"Descend Pilots Discretion Maintain..."

[JC150]

I learned in instrument training that if you're given a descent instruction at your discretion, you have to report to the controller when you begin the descent if you don't descend right away. I've had 3 times now where the controllers seemed to be confused when I reported that I was beginning my descent and they asked if I understood what descend at pilot's discretion means. I explained that I had to report when I began the descent and the last controller I talked to (Atlanta App) said "I can see on my scope when you're descending."

From my observation, when other pilots on the frequency have received a descent at pilot's discretion, I never hear them report that they are starting their descent.

This isn't a major issue, but I've been wanting to ask here if anyone else reports that they're starting their descent? Or if this is one of those things where you're supposed to but don't have to... Thanks!

 

[wsuffa]

I believe the report is "when vacating a previously assigned altitude" with is different than simply "descending".

You will frequently hear the term "out of xxx thousand" or "vacating xxx thousand".

Yes, they have you on radar but it is a required position report to indicate that you've vacated an altitude.

 

[Velocity173]

5-3-3

 

[Geico266]

I learned in instrument training that if you're given a descent instruction at your discretion, you have to report to the controller when you begin the descent if you don't descend right away. I've had 3 times now where the controllers seemed to be confused when I reported that I was beginning my descent and they asked if I understood what descend at pilot's discretion means. I explained that I had to report when I began the descent and the last controller I talked to (Atlanta App) said "I can see on my scope when you're descending."

From my observation, when other pilots on the frequency have received a descent at pilot's discretion, I never hear them report that they are starting their descent.

This isn't a major issue, but I've been wanting to ask here if anyone else reports that they're starting their descent? Or if this is one of those things where you're supposed to but don't have to... Thanks!

The way it was explained to me was there is no assigned altitude so it is your "discretion" what altitude and when to descend. No reporting needed.

 

[MikeELP]

If I'm given "Cessna 123, descend at pilot's discretion maintain 6000", I respond with "Pilot's discretion down to 6000"

I then descend at my discretion. No further report needed.

 

[roncachamp]

I learned in instrument training that if you're given a descent instruction at your discretion, you have to report to the controller when you begin the descent if you don't descend right away. I've had 3 times now where the controllers seemed to be confused when I reported that I was beginning my descent and they asked if I understood what descend at pilot's discretion means. I explained that I had to report when I began the descent and the last controller I talked to (Atlanta App) said "I can see on my scope when you're descending."

From my observation, when other pilots on the frequency have received a descent at pilot's discretion, I never hear them report that they are starting their descent.

This isn't a major issue, but I've been wanting to ask here if anyone else reports that they're starting their descent? Or if this is one of those things where you're supposed to but don't have to... Thanks!

The AIM says pilots should report vacating any previously assigned altitude for a newly assigned altitude. There is no requirement to make such a report.

 

[Unit74]

I receive the information and only report arriving at the assigned alt. it is understood that once received, you will begin the decent.

 

[poadeleted20]

As McFly notes, AIM 5-3-3a.1.(a) says:

5-3-3. Additional Reports ​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

Note the lack of any exception for when altitude reporting equipment is in use. IOW, those controllers were wrong to criticize you for making a report the AIM says you are supposed to make.

 

[poadeleted20]

The AIM says pilots should report vacating any previously assigned altitude for a newly assigned altitude. There is no requirement to make such a report.

That said, a controller who criticizes a pilot for making a recommended report is out of line.

 

[roncachamp]

As McFly notes, AIM 5-3-3a.1.(a) says:
Note the lack of any exception for when altitude reporting equipment is in use. IOW, those controllers were wrong to criticize you for making a report the AIM says you are supposed to make.

No, the writers of the AIM are wrong to tell pilots they should make unnecessary reports to ATC.

 

[poadeleted20]

I receive the information and only report arriving at the assigned alt. it is understood that once received, you will begin the decent.

A report of arriving at an assigned altitude is required only when instructed by ATC, and otherwise is not recommended by the AIM. See Section 5-3-3 for more.

 

[roncachamp]

That said, a controller who criticizes a pilot for making a recommended report is out of line.

There's nothing out of line with a short discussion that helps a pilot gain a better understanding of ATC.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, the writers of the AIM are wrong to tell pilots they should make unnecessary reports to ATC.

Then I suggest you tell them that -- see the front of the AIM for how to suggest changes. But until that change is made to the AIM, we instructors are duty-bound to continue to recommend that people do what the AIM recommends unless there's a really special safety reason for doing otherwise, and controllers will continue to be acting inappropriately if they criticize pilots on the air for doing what the AIM recommends.

 

[Velocity173]

If I had to guess, I'd say what the controller is getting at is the importance of making the report in non radar. Not that it matters in your case because you were given PD but under a normal descent instruction, they can't assign that altitude to another aircraft until you report leaving. Radar, they can use mode C.

In your case it's not all that important but the AIM would still like you to do it.

 

[poadeleted20]

There's nothing out of line with a short discussion that helps a pilot gain a better understanding of ATC.

Please show me the place in FAA Order 7110.65 which says controllers should criticize pilots on the air for doing what the AIM says pilots should do. I'm having trouble finding that in that Order. So I'm thinking that by that standard, such criticism is from the FAA's perspective "out of line".

 

[roncachamp]

Then I suggest you tell them that -- see the front of the AIM for how to suggest changes.

BTDT

But until that change is made to the AIM, we instructors are duty-bound to continue to recommend that people do what the AIM recommends unless there's a really special safety reason for doing otherwise, and controllers will continue to be acting inappropriately if they criticize pilots on the air for doing what the AIM recommends.

The OP sayeth; "I learned in instrument training that if you're given a descent instruction at your discretion, you have to report to the controller when you begin the descent if you don't descend right away." The AIM says nothing like that, it's likely he got that misinformation from a CFI.

 

[poadeleted20]

BTDT

Then I guess the FAA's failure to effect that change tells us they don't agree with you, so we should keep making that report.

The OP sayeth; "I learned in instrument training that if you're given a descent instruction at your discretion, you have to report to the controller when you begin the descent if you don't descend right away." The AIM says nothing like that, it's likely he got that misinformation from a CFI.

I wouldn't say it says nothing like that, just that the OP didn't learn it was "should" rather than "have to", and having seen too many people misunderstand what they were taught, I'm leaving open that possibility unless you have a recording of the training session which shows the CFI really taught it incorrectly.

 

[roncachamp]

I wouldn't say it says nothing like that, just that the OP didn't learn it was "should" rather than "have to", and having seen too many people misunderstand what they were taught, I'm leaving open that possibility unless you have a recording of the training session which shows the CFI really taught it incorrectly.

I've had several CFIs tell me things that were incorrect. When that's happened I told them, and showed them, why they were incorrect. Some were thankful, some were skeptical, some refused to believe. It's much like this forum.

 

[GMascelli]

If I'm given "Cessna 123, descend at pilot's discretion maintain 6000", I respond with "Pilot's discretion down to 6000"

I then descend at my discretion. No further report needed.

On the same page Mike. Easy peasy....

 

[vintage cessna]

I learned in instrument training that if you're given a descent instruction at your discretion, you have to report to the controller when you begin the descent if you don't descend right away. I've had 3 times now where the controllers seemed to be confused when I reported that I was beginning my descent and they asked if I understood what descend at pilot's discretion means. I explained that I had to report when I began the descent and the last controller I talked to (Atlanta App) said "I can see on my scope when you're descending."

From my observation, when other pilots on the frequency have received a descent at pilot's discretion, I never hear them report that they are starting their descent.

This isn't a major issue, but I've been wanting to ask here if anyone else reports that they're starting their descent? Or if this is one of those things where you're supposed to but don't have to... Thanks!

If you have been told by ATC that you are in "radar contact" and nothing is ever said other wise, you are in a radar environment. Your mode c has also been validated. If told to maintain an altitude ( climb/descend) you need to acknowledge the clearance, preferably by repeating what you were told. Your mode c does the reporting. Stating that you are starting a decsent is just unnecessary frequency clutter. A controller that is employing non radar procedures in a radar environment may ask you to report leaving an altitude.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you have been told by ATC that you are in "radar contact" and nothing is ever said other wise, you are in a radar environment. Your mode c has also been validated. If told to maintain an altitude ( climb/descend) you need to acknowledge the clearance, preferably by repeating what you were told. Your mode c does the reporting. Stating that you are starting a decsent is just unnecessary frequency clutter.

You are entitled to that opinion, but the FAA still recommends in writing that you make the report even though Steven apparently suggested they change that recommendation.

A controller that is employing non radar procedures in a radar environment may ask you to report leaving an altitude.

More likely they will "instruct" you to make that report, at which point it is required by regulation, not just recommended by the AIM.

 

[bobmrg]

I've had several CFIs tell me things that were incorrect. When that's happened I told them, and showed them, why they were incorrect. Some were thankful, some were skeptical, some refused to believe. It's much like this forum.

That's why I beat the drum for asking instructors to "Show me that in writing."

Bob Gardner

 

[MikeELP]

On the same page Mike. Easy peasy....

You would think so...but it looks like Ron's working at getting his post count up to 30,000 so you can expect this thread to go for a few more pages.

 

[poadeleted20]

You would think so...but it looks like Ron's working at getting his post count up to 30,000 so you can expect this thread to go for a few more pages.

Only if people keep saying you should ignore what the AIM recommends, or that it's OK for controllers to criticize a pilot on the ATC freq for doing what the AIM recommends.

 

[vintage cessna]

You are entitled to that opinion, but the FAA still recommends in writing that you make the report even though Steven apparently suggested they change that recommendation.

More likely they will "instruct" you to make that report, at which point it is required by regulation, not just recommended by the AIM.

In ATC, unnecessary frequency clutter is any transmission that is not necessary to conduct the business at hand. What the AIM says is nothing more than an opinion of the author of that passage, otherwise the word would be "shall".

It is just as likely that controller employing non radar procedures in a radar environment would not ask for the pilot for a report of leaving an altitude, since the observation of a mode c altitude change is considered the same as a verbal report of vacating an altitude.

 

[MikeELP]

Only if people keep saying you should ignore what the AIM recommends, or that it's OK for controllers to criticize a pilot on the ATC freq for doing what the AIM recommends.

"Pilot's Discretion"

If given a PD descent from ATC...I acknowledge the PD descent. In that regard, I have reported "leaving" the previous altitude and per the discretion allowed me, I will actually begin the descent when I darn well please. NO FURTHER REPORT NEEDED unless ATC asks for one.

 

[poadeleted20]

In ATC, unnecessary frequency clutter is any transmission that is not necessary to conduct the business at hand. What the AIM says is nothing more than an opinion of the author of that passage, otherwise the word would be "shall".

No, it's a lot more than that. It is the result of a lot of thought by a lot of people including both ATC and highly experienced operations types with backgrounds including light plane instructors, corporate and charter pilots, and commercial air transport pilots. The NTSB and courts generally look on it as the bible on how one is supposed to operate, and deviations from its recommendations are generally considered inappropriate conduct unless you have a really good safety reason for doing it otherwise. So, while it only "suggests" or "recommends", it's more like when your Dad says, "I suggest you get [this] done before bed tonight" than "Hey, here's an idea for you to consider."

 

[poadeleted20]

"Pilot's Discretion"

If given a PD descent from ATC...I acknowledge the PD descent. In that regard, I have reported "leaving" the previous altitude and per the discretion allowed me, I will actually begin the descent when I darn well please. NO FURTHER REPORT NEEDED unless ATC asks for one.

I guess you didn't carefully read the AIM excerpt. Receiving the clearance is not the same as actually "vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level" -- and ATC cannot give some else that altitude just on the basis of your acknowledgment of that clearance.

 

[Everskyward]

Whatever the AIM says, in real life probably 95% of the time pilots do not report leaving the altitude if they delay until later. I fly arrivals where PD is often used and I rarely hear this. I believe it's required in Canada, though, so I try to remember to do it there. In any case I've never heard someone chastised for failing to report.

 

[MikeELP]

I guess you didn't carefully read the AIM excerpt. Receiving the clearance is not the same as actually "vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level" -- and ATC cannot give some else that altitude just on the basis of your acknowledgment of that clearance.

And when given a PD climb/descent, it should be pretty obvious that ATC would not have given you that discretion if they had an imminent need for that altitude for someone else.

 

[vintage cessna]

I guess you didn't carefully read the AIM excerpt. Receiving the clearance is not the same as actually "vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level" -- and ATC cannot give some else that altitude just on the basis of your acknowledgment of that clearance.

On a decent at pilots discretion, ATC a can not assign the altitude to another aircraft even if the pilot reports he has left the altitude or the mode c is observed by the controller to have changed.Once a pilot acknowledges receipt of a non discretionary decsent the pilot is expected to comply ASAP. A report stating that decsent has started is not necessary or wanted unless asked to do so.

Why the AIM would recommend it, I have no clue, do you?

 

[FastEddieB]

Whatever the AIM says, in real life probably 95% of the time pilots do not report leaving the altitude if they delay until later.

Put me in the 5%.

I encouraged my instrument students to do it as well.

I also do it VFR, even though not technically required, since my altitudes were not "assigned". Figure it can't hurt and may give a controller a head's up about a potential conflict down the road. Usually just get a reply of "VFR altitude at pilot's discretion" and do not report every level off or leaving altitude from that point on.

Anyway, never been a problem.

 

[jnmeade]

Well, since this is turning into the typical argument about what is recommended versus what is preferred, and will end up confusing all the newbies and many of the old timers, let me ask a totally different question, as much to change the subject as anything:

You are assigned and flying at 9,000 feet.
Minneapolis says: Cessna 12345, descend at pilots discretion maintain 6,000.
Cessna 12345: Cessna 12345 descend at pilots discretion maintain 6,000 (or, as I used to probably incorrectly say it, "345 PD 6000")

Cessna 12345 continues to fly at 9,000 for a while and then decides to descend, but as he descends, he notices the tops are at 6,500 and he prefers to stay above them if he can.

The question is, can Cessna 12345 stop the descent on his own volition at some altitude above 6,000 or must he continue to 6,000?

Without reopening the previous argument, what I'd have done is:
Minneapolis Center, Cessna 12345 9,000 feet descending 6000.
As I got lower and confirmed the tops (with possible turbulence and maybe even ice) I'd have said:
Minneapolis Center, Cessna 12345 at 7,500 descending 6000 request 7000 to stay above tops

1. Do I have to ask for permission to stop a descent at an interim altitude once it has been initiated? If I do not have to ask permission, do I have to advise ATC?
2. If I have to ask permission to stop, is there any preferred way to do that, or just make a request?

 

[vintage cessna]

A lot of pilots will reply to an altitude assignment with something like "leaving 5 for 6" and not repeat the clearance verbatim. That works in that it does use any extra transmission time and the altitude assignment has been verified by the pilot. Verifying the altitude assignment and than stating that a decsent has started is just unnecessarily tying up the frequency.

 

[narchee]

I never report leaving an altitude when given a descent with PD and almost never hear anyone else do it either. When I do hear someone do it, it sounds weird to me and I admit if the frequency is busy a little annoying that they're wasting time saying something that the controller can see for themselves.

 

[Everskyward]

Without reopening the previous argument, what I'd have done is:
Minneapolis Center, Cessna 12345 9,000 feet descending 6000.
As I got lower and confirmed the tops (with possible turbulence and maybe even ice) I'd have said:
Minneapolis Center, Cessna 12345 at 7,500 descending 6000 request 7000 to stay above tops

1. Do I have to ask for permission to stop a descent at an interim altitude once it has been initiated? If I do not have to ask permission, do I have to advise ATC?
2. If I have to ask permission to stop, is there any preferred way to do that, or just make a request?

You can stop your descent at an intermediate altitude without notifying them.

 

[jnmeade]

Whatever the AIM says, in real life probably 95% of the time pilots do not report leaving the altitude if they delay until later. I fly arrivals where PD is often used and I rarely hear this. I believe it's required in Canada, though, so I try to remember to do it there. In any case I've never heard someone chastised for failing to report.

My observation does not agree; I think more than that report. I always did and that's the way the charter company I flew with did.

I agree I have not heard people chastised by ATC for not reporting, but what I have heard many more times than once is "Cessna 12345, Minneapolis Center, have you started your descent?"
You can read that a couple of ways, such as, "hint, hint, are you thinking of starting down" of "my scope or your transponder is scratchy today and I don't know for sure how high you are" or "I think you've started your descent at about 200 fpm but want to know for sure before I tell you something different".
In any case, when ATC asks something like that you can imagine the pilot is doing a quick to see why such a question would be asked.

 

[poadeleted20]

The question is, can Cessna 12345 stop the descent on his own volition at some altitude above 6,000 or must he continue to 6,000?

The pilot can stop at an intermediate altitude as long as there's no additional restriction like "At pilot's discretion, descend and maintain 6000, cross ten west of Bungo at or below 7000".

1. Do I have to ask for permission to stop a descent at an interim altitude once it has been initiated?

No regulatory requirement...

If I do not have to ask permission, do I have to advise ATC?

...and no AIM recommendation to do so, either.

 

[vintage cessna]

Well, since this is turning into the typical argument about what is recommended versus what is preferred, and will end up confusing all the newbies and many of the old timers, let me ask a totally different question, as much to change the subject as anything:

You are assigned and flying at 9,000 feet.
Minneapolis says: Cessna 12345, descend at pilots discretion maintain 6,000.
Cessna 12345: Cessna 12345 descend at pilots discretion maintain 6,000 (or, as I used to probably incorrectly say it, "345 PD 6000")

Cessna 12345 continues to fly at 9,000 for a while and then decides to descend, but as he descends, he notices the tops are at 6,500 and he prefers to stay above them if he can.

The question is, can Cessna 12345 stop the descent on his own volition at some altitude above 6,000 or must he continue to 6,000?

Without reopening the previous argument, what I'd have done is:
Minneapolis Center, Cessna 12345 9,000 feet descending 6000.
As I got lower and confirmed the tops (with possible turbulence and maybe even ice) I'd have said:
Minneapolis Center, Cessna 12345 at 7,500 descending 6000 request 7000 to stay above tops



1. Do I have to ask for permission to stop a descent at an interim altitude once it has been initiated? If I do not have to ask permission, do I have to advise ATC?
2. If I have to ask permission to stop, is there any preferred way to do that, or just make a request?

If you are given a pd decsent you can start and stop the descent at any altitude between 9 and 6 without saying anything. Once you have vacated an altitude you could not return to that altitude without permission.

 

[jnmeade]

Thanks for clearing up the descent/stop question.