Dello oil in a cessna?

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Thomas

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Thomas
I was talking to a farmer that swears that Dello Deisel engine oil is the best oil to use in his Lycoming engine. I did not know anything about Dello oil except it was used in tractors and deisel trucks so I could'nt argue with him.
Any one ever hear of such a thing?
 
Thomas said:
I was talking to a farmer that swears that Dello Deisel engine oil is the best oil to use in his Lycoming engine. I did not know anything about Dello oil except it was used in tractors and deisel trucks so I could'nt argue with him.
Any one ever hear of such a thing?
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The most common oil for large diesel truck engines is 15W40, not so far off from the 15W50 that most of us use in our airplanes.

However, I'm sure the additive package is completely different and if Lycoming had anything official to say it would probably be "no way in hell."

I'm guessing that said farmer likes that oil because it's laying around for use in all his trucks and tractors already, and it may be cheaper as well. :nono:
 
That would be my guess as well. He did say it aint cheep, but then again why would he use it over aviation oils? Just dont fit!
 
Automotive oils (even for diesel engines) are designed to work in an entirely different environment (liquid cooled) than aviation piston engine oils (air cooled). In addition, use of an oil which doesn't meet the aviation specs will certainly void any warranties on the engine, and possibly your insurance. Finally, use of an oil that doesn't meet the specs in your POH might even violate 14 CFR 91.9.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
However, I'm sure the additive package is completely different and if Lycoming had anything official to say it would probably be "no way in hell."
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I would really doubt that Delo would be suited to handling the lead products that we get burning avgas.

Remember the original Mobil 1 aviation oil? It caused lead sludge buildup problems - Mobil bought a bunch of engines over that...


Trapper John
 
Thomas said:
That would be my guess as well. He did say it aint cheep, but then again why would he use it over aviation oils? Just dont fit!
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Why? Why? You axen us? Who knows what delusions any particular individual may be operating under...

Some people even add MMO or Slick 50 or ...

Oils have different additive packages / properties / API requirements for diesel vs. gasoline. Some oils meet both gasoline and diesel requirements http://www.unitedoil.com.au/apiclass.htm
 
Ron Levy said:
Automotive oils (even for diesel engines) are designed to work in an entirely different environment (liquid cooled) than aviation piston engine oils (air cooled). In addition, use of an oil which doesn't meet the aviation specs will certainly void any warranties on the engine, and possibly your insurance. Finally, use of an oil that doesn't meet the specs in your POH might even violate 14 CFR 91.9.
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Many airboaters and orchard wind machines use DELO 15W40 in their Lycoming and continentals and it works better than the stuff we use in aviation.

The requirement for an ashless oil was made way way back when every one was running a radial engine, simply because the radials use a lot of oil, that oil usage would cause a build up of carbon which contained a lot of sulfer, which glowed like a ember causing preignition.

So, now the question is, does your little flat engine use enough oil to do this?

I think not.

Here is another thought, when the aviation oil had no sulfer and other additives Lycoming had great problems with their cams, so the put an additive back into the oil, what did that additive contain ?
 
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Trapper John said:
I would really doubt that Delo would be suited to handling the lead products that we get burning avgas.
Trapper John
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If our Aviation oils are made to handle lead, why are we having so many lead problems ?
 
Tom-D said:
If our Aviation oils are made to handle lead, why are we having so many lead problems ?
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I'm not having lead problems. Of course, I follow Lycoming's engine operating recommendations pretty religiously, and that may have something to do with my lack of problems.
 
Ron Levy said:
Automotive oils (even for diesel engines) are designed to work in an entirely different environment (liquid cooled) than aviation piston engine oils (air cooled).
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While I'd never run anything but approved oil in my Lycoming, I do have a LOT of time with my hands inside Porsche air cooled engines. In our race engines we always ran Kendall® 50W. These were pretty high performance engines, even the 70's street engines. Kendall made no claims on air-cooled vs. water cooled. Castrol always left a grey sludgy residue in the bottom of the crankcases. We always tried to get customers to run Kendall, but a lot of them insisted on the Castrol.
 
Tom-D said:
Here is another thought, when the aviation oil had no sulfer and other additives Lycoming had great problems with their cams, so the put an additive back into the oil, what did that additive contain ?
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TCP. Tricresyl phosphate. It's a lead scavenger that has good anti-scuff properties. See http://www.avblend.com/faa/kas_thomas_lenckite.html

I used to use 15W40 auto oil in my A-65 until I read somewhere that auto engine oils typically have stronger detergents and scrubbers in them that can loosen the accumulated crud in the case and send it all to the filter and overwhelm it. I did find lots of carbon and varnish in the screen after that and went back to aircraft oils. I think if the engine was fresh and not loaded up with crud the auto engine oil might be OK.

I find that the Aeroshell 15W50 runs far cooler than the W80 I used to use. It reduces friction so much that getting the oil temp up now is a problem. I checked the gauge and it's OK. I'm going to have to put a blanket on the tank--even in the summertime--to get the temp up to 180 or so to keep the moisture out.

Dan
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm not having lead problems. Of course, I follow Lycoming's engine operating recommendations pretty religiously, and that may have something to do with my lack of problems.
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Given time your engine will suffer the same problems as the rest of the operators.

Running as lean as possible is the only really effective action we can do.
 
Dan Thomas said:
TCP. Tricresyl phosphate. It's a lead scavenger that has good anti-scuff properties. See http://www.avblend.com/faa/kas_thomas_lenckite.html

I used to use 15W40 auto oil in my A-65 until I read somewhere that auto engine oils typically have stronger detergents and scrubbers in them that can loosen the accumulated crud in the case and send it all to the filter and overwhelm it. I did find lots of carbon and varnish in the screen after that and went back to aircraft oils. I think if the engine was fresh and not loaded up with crud the auto engine oil might be OK.

I find that the Aeroshell 15W50 runs far cooler than the W80 I used to use. It reduces friction so much that getting the oil temp up now is a problem. I checked the gauge and it's OK. I'm going to have to put a blanket on the tank--even in the summertime--to get the temp up to 180 or so to keep the moisture out.

Dan
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That would be my only worry.
 
Keith Lane said:
While I'd never run anything but approved oil in my Lycoming, I do have a LOT of time with my hands inside Porsche air cooled engines. In our race engines we always ran Kendall® 50W. These were pretty high performance engines, even the 70's street engines. Kendall made no claims on air-cooled vs. water cooled. Castrol always left a grey sludgy residue in the bottom of the crankcases. We always tried to get customers to run Kendall, but a lot of them insisted on the Castrol.
Click to expand...

I believe the ashless requirement is meant to address the loose piston ring clearances and subsequent oil burning in aircraft engines, something that's not supposed to be a problem in Porsche aircooled automotive engines (which BTW have much better cylinder head temp control than most airplane engines). I wonder what oil was required/recommended in the PFM powered Mooneys?
 
A couple quotes about oils

From the ECI2FLY web page "oil talk for dummies"

"TCP: Tricresyl Phosphate. An oil additive which produces an EP
lubricant. Lycoming oil additive LW-16702 contains this
chemical."

It also contains other chemicals to add cling to the oil,

from Lycoming MSB 471B

"The additive contains an anti-scuffing agent. ((TSP) my add) Laboratory tests indicate that occasionally when an engine is first started, particularly if the engine has not been used for an extended period, during cold weather, for a very brief interval there is insufficient residual oil between moving parts; this can reduce the service life of components. The additive helps to maintain a film of lubricant to help protect the engine during the initial start-up.

Sulfer is one of these chemicals added in the snake oil.
 
Tom-D said:
Given time your engine will suffer the same problems as the rest of the operators.

Running as lean as possible is the only really effective action we can do.
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That's one of the things Lycoming recommends and I do, and probably because I do, my engines have never suffered those problems even when run past recommended TBO.
 
Tom-D said:
Lycoming oil additive LW-16702 contains this
chemical."

It also contains other chemicals to add cling to the oil,

from Lycoming MSB 471B

"The additive contains an anti-scuffing agent. ((TSP) my add) Laboratory tests indicate that occasionally when an engine is first started, particularly if the engine has not been used for an extended period, during cold weather, for a very brief interval there is insufficient residual oil between moving parts; this can reduce the service life of components. The additive helps to maintain a film of lubricant to help protect the engine during the initial start-up.

Sulfer is one of these chemicals added in the snake oil.
Click to expand...

Is this the snake oil required on the Lycoming H2AD engines for cam follower wear?
 
Keith Lane said:
Is this the snake oil required on the Lycoming H2AD engines for cam follower wear?
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One would think that aircraft engines should have incorporated roller lifter technology long before it did. They now advertise roller lifters as latest greatest improvement,,, Geez Detroit Diesels had that stuff back in 1941. The motor in my experimental is a roller/roller/roller motor. Very little friction is created in my valvetrain. As for Keiths comment on Kendall,,, boy does that bring back memories, I always used the 70 weight nitro oil during any assembly and GT-1 50 was my oil of choice. I NEVER had a lubrication related failure.. Unfortunately I cannot buy Kendall out here in Wyoming so I use the second best,,, Valvoline 40 racing stuff. Kinda like Helmanns mayo is not available west of the mississippi, out here it is called best foods... Now back to your regularly scheduled program.:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

Ben.
www.haaspowerair.com
 
Trapper John said:
Aren't stuck valves a too-much-lead-in-the-fuel problem rather than an oil problem?
Trapper John
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Too much lead in the fuel is the problem oil is susposed to take care of.
 
Thomas said:
I was talking to a farmer that swears that Dello Diesel engine oil is the best oil to use in his Lycoming engine. I did not know anything about Dello oil except it was used in tractors and diesel trucks so I could'nt argue with him.
Any one ever hear of such a thing?
Click to expand...

A diesel oil would keep aircraft engines VERY clean with 3 times the dispersant and neutral and overbased detergents. It would eliminate deposits and lead problems. They would work very well in most aircraft engines and are used successfully in some Lycomings in air boats.

They would work really well right up to the point the engine fails catastrophically due to pre-ignition because of the buildup of oxide deposits from the metallic detergent and zinc antiwear. Preignition can blow a hole in a piston in one revolution. One never knows if or when this will happen which is why we run ashless oils in our aircraft.

Ed
 
Can you imagine what would happen if you swapped this engine over to a DELO-400 oil.

That engine has a 100 mesh screen in it, (no filter) and all the sludge is headed for your bearings.
 

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Edward Kollin said:
A diesel oil would keep aircraft engines VERY clean with 3 times the dispersant and neutral and overbased detergents. It would eliminate deposits and lead problems. They would work very well in most aircraft engines and are used successfully in some Lycomings in air boats.

They would work really well right up to the point the engine fails catastrophically due to pre-ignition because of the buildup of oxide deposits from the metallic detergent and zinc antiwear. Preignition can blow a hole in a piston in one revolution. One never knows if or when this will happen which is why we run ashless oils in our aircraft.

Ed
Click to expand...

Ed, thanks for your response,

Question, how much oil consumption does it require to build up enough deposit to cause the situation you describe?
 
Tom-D said:
Ed, thanks for your response,

Question, how much oil consumption does it require to build up enough deposit to cause the situation you describe?
Click to expand...

It is difficult to say. Factors that enter in to it are type of engine, HP rating, oil consumption, use (high/low HP cruse, aerobatics etc.), CHT's, mixture settings and the propensity to build combustion chamber deposits. In aircraft it is just not worth the risk.

Ed
 
Edward Kollin said:
It is difficult to say. Factors that enter in to it are type of engine, HP rating, oil consumption, use (high/low HP cruse, aerobatics etc.), CHT's, mixture settings and the propensity to build combustion chamber deposits. In aircraft it is just not worth the risk.

Ed
Click to expand...

I believe that any cylinder that would burn enough oil to cause this problem would be replaced for high oil consumption.

I don't believe that anyone in modern times, (1940 and later) has completeed the tests that would tell us the answer, the real tests were made long before we had flat engines that don't use huge quanities of oil.
 
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