Definition of a temporary change?

DavidWhite said:
Mounting a camera with a suction cup - I was able to find major and minor alterations but it didn't sound like either of those to me.
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Mounting a camera with a suction cup doesn't alter anything.
 
DavidWhite said:
Mounting a camera with a suction cup - I was able to find major and minor alterations but it didn't sound like either of those to me.
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When you mount a gps or radio in such a fashion is it an alteration?
 
DavidWhite said:
It's mounted on the outside so it alters (however so slightly) the airflow of whatever surface it's stuck to. The camera itself is smaller than the palm of my hand.
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Did you perform maintenance on the plane?
 
But I'm curious as to what FAR it is so I can show it to the FSDO inspector if/when I ever get ramped with it stuck to the side of my airplane.
 
DavidWhite said:
Mounting a camera with a suction cup - I was able to find major and minor alterations but it didn't sound like either of those to me.
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Inside the plane? The FAA is on record as saying anything attached with a clamp, velcro, or a suction cup and not wired into the plane via anything other than an existing plug/receptacle (e.g., the 12v accessory power socket or an audio jack) is not "installed," and not an issue. That's not in an FAR, but if memory serves, it's in an Advisory Circular and FAA Order 8900.1.

Outside the airplane? Whole 'nother story. Unless you can show that it has no effect on the aircraft's aerodynamics and control balance/effectiveness, it's not legal without FAA approval, no matter how it's attached.
 
DavidWhite said:
It's mounted on the outside so it alters (however so slightly) the airflow of whatever surface it's stuck to. The camera itself is smaller than the palm of my hand.
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Big or small, if it's on the outside, the burden is on you to show it doesn't affect the aircraft's flight/handling characteristics, and I know of no FAA guidance to help you do that.
 
DavidWhite said:
But I'm curious as to what FAR it is so I can show it to the FSDO inspector if/when I ever get ramped with it stuck to the side of my airplane.
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There is no FAR which says what you want to do is OK. You will have to research the airworthiness AC's on that issue unless someone else here can point to the right one because I cannot.
 
As far as the FAA definition of "Temporary", just look at some of our "T"FRs.
 
The FAR you are looking for is FAR 1.1

Minor alteration means an alteration other than a major alteration.

Major alteration means an alteration not listed in the aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller specifications—

(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.

Now, MHO, it is attached by accepted practices? = yes

No tools required to get it on or off. = no
It does not modify the aircraft in any way.= no

You have no modification or alteration either major or minor.

If in doubt, call your local FSDO. You'll find they don't care unless you attach it to a flight control.
 
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Tom-D said:
The FAR you are looking for is FAR 1.1

Minor alteration means an alteration other than a major alteration.

Major alteration means an alteration not listed in the aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller specifications—

(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.

Now, MHO, it is attached by accepted practices? = yes

No tools required to get it on or off. = no
It does not modify the aircraft in any way.= no

You have no modification or alteration either major or minor.

If in doubt, call your local FSDO. You'll find they don't care unless you attach it to a flight control.
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Agreed.
 
Ron Levy said:
There is no FAR which says what you want to do is OK. You will have to research the airworthiness AC's on that issue unless someone else here can point to the right one because I cannot.
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You are right, there are no FARs telling us what we can do, just what we can't.

There is a far that tells us what a major or minor alteration is, that's FAR 1.1, and IAW that FAR he has neither because he has made no alteration to the aircraft.

How do you believe we get all the videos on You Tube?
 
To the op..

If you get ramp checked and the inspector wants to know why you placed a camera on your aircraft? simply tell them so you could record their ramp check.

watch how nice they act after that.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Besides, it would really suck if it came off in flight. :yikes:
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That's what I was thinking. He's wanting to mount something to the outside of the airplane with a suction cup? My outdoor thermometer sometimes falls off my window and my house is standing still...
 
He's talking about the gopro camera. The suction cups are serious.

Included are three flat surface adhesive mounts as well as a suction cup for maximum versatility and convenience. The included industrial strength suction cup allows for your quick-release HERO camera. The suction cup mount is strong enough to pull dents out of a car door or stay attached to outside an airplane at 200mph+.

http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/8523

I want one. Too bad Christmas is over!
 
Tom-D said:
To the op..

If you get ramp checked and the inspector wants to know why you placed a camera on your aircraft? simply tell them so you could record their ramp check.

watch how nice they act after that.
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Now that right there is a good one!!!!!!:rofl:
 
Didn't I just see you post a video in another thread with this . . . um . . . outside view of your plane taking off and stuff?
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Didn't I just see you post a video in another thread with this . . . um . . . outside view of your plane taking off and stuff?
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Yes, but that was before I made the decision to keep it inside the plane. The suction cup is serious, I can pull and pull and pull and can't get it to budge. I would still feel better having it on the inside, though.
 
There are a bejillion videos done with that 3M sticky pad and suction cup technology on airplanes, race cars, and tons of machines taking better poundings than a non-aerobatic aircraft will ever dish out.

I've had a conversation with a very anal lawyer who worked his way through the FARs and a million conversations with trusted folks who came to the conclusion that as long as the "thing" hanging from the outside of the aircraft somewhere:

a) Could be proven to not have changed the aerodynamics of the aircraft in any measurable way.
b) NEVER fell off. More than just the suction cup was utilized to attach it.
c) Did not require ANY tools to attach -- think big thumbscrews here... hands only.

He'd risk slapping some cameras on some birds in very carefully chosen places.

Additional paranoia meant generous amounts of real gaffer's tape surrounding the assembly and fashioned into a sort of "fairing" to alleviate any possible aerodynamic changes.

He also had the resources and ability to handle the legal case if it so arose. Most of us don't.

Conversations with various FSDO personnel off the record, yielded nothing consistent.

So... take all for whatever that's worth.

There's also plenty of YouTube videos with cameras slapped to the outside of aircraft with nothing more than the 3M pad and suction cup in places on the airframe where at least one control surface had to have slightly disrupted airflow flowing over the camera, and the N-number in plain sight. Piles of them.

Personally, I'd maybe do a proper mount on a wing strut... maybe. And it'd have to follow that "requires no tools" rule. Suction cup only... no. Need a wrench or a screwdriver to put it on? No. (Putting the assembly TOGETHER with a wrench prior to attachment, fine...)

Also be aware that any camera mounted outside in the right temperature/dewpoint conditions will suffer from the lens fogging over pretty badly.

If an external camera falls off, you're in instant violation of 91.15 -- and when someone finds it, they have the evidence in hand if the memory card or other media survived the fall. If they get hit by it, you and your family will be declaring bankruptcy after the Civil case is over. :(

Of course, if you did do it and the video wasn't PUBLISHED... it'd take someone seeing the camera mount on the ramp or breaking into your house and stealing the video, to even know you'd done it.

There's some nice mounts that work well in the interior... we have one that clamps to the headrest post and gets the camera up near the ceiling with some vibration that can usually be edited out in post-production, and some suction cup mounts for the inside of windows that allow cameras to be pointed in or out from there, depending on their size. You can do a pretty neat job of shooting from the inside if you keep the windows clean. I think the clamp mount could get a little wild in turbulence with a heavy camera... the suction cups would probably stay put. At least the higher quality ones.

Tons of cheap stuff to try on eBay...
 
Sac Arrow said:
Potential FAR 91.15 violation....
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Sec. 91.15

Dropping objects.

No pilot in command of a civil aircraft may allow any object to be dropped from that aircraft in flight that creates a hazard to persons or property.
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91.15 applies only when the pilot "allows" the drop, and I think it would be pretty obvious even to the FAA that a pilot would not "allow" the drop of an expensive camera.

OTOH, I think the FAA could determine that the pilot's operation of an aircraft with an external device attached in other than an FAA-approved installation/alteration (and therefore possibly inadequately attached) was "careless/reckless" and write a violation of 91.3 as well as 91.7 for flying with the unauthorized alteration.
 
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