Define instrument approach for currency purposes.

stratobee

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stratobee
Seems to be a bit unclear here, at least for me.

Does an instrument approach constitute an approach under an IFR clearance if it's in full VMC?

Or

Does it mean anything below VFR? Meaning, I can break out at 2999ft and it counts?

Does it mean anything below MVFR, meaning I can break out at 999ft and it counts?

Does it mean you have to have been in IMC at some point during your approach?

Does it mean you have to have had IMC after that FAF?

Does it mean you have to have gone through some IMC before DA?

Does it mean it has to be IMC until minimums?



If it's the last, then how could anyone stay current?
 
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Seems to be a bit unclear here, at least for me.

[questions removed]

There is no definition. But you can fly approaches with a safety pilot wearing a view limiting device even if CAVU and log it for currency. For me, if once past the IAF I am in clouds or anything that reduces my visibility to the point where I need instruments to keep it oily side down for more than a minute I log it. I've punched through layers where it took 30 seconds to get through - I didn't log those.
 
If I can't do the approach legally without an IFR clearance, that's good enough for me.
 
First, some definitions...

As a legally critical point of semantics, let's not forget the definitions of VMC, IMC, simulated instrument conditions (which for brevity I'll call SIC here), and actual instrument conditions (AIC).

VMC is flight conditions in which VFR flight is permitted under 14 CFR 91.155. These conditions change depending on altitude and airspace.

IMC is flight conditions in which VFR flight is not permitted under 14 CFR 91.155.

From the 1984 Carr letter of interpretation:

"Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles.

"Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.
Note in particular the "typically," as oppose to "always" in the AIC definition.

Thus, you can be in AIC in VMC -- say, between layers at night with several thousand feet between the layers and miles of visibility, but no visible ground or horizon references for navigation or control. Likewise, you can be in IMC without being in AIC, say, when you're 1500 feet laterally from the only cloud in a clear blue sky.

This may seem silly, but it's an important point to remember when discussing these rules, particularly since there are times you can be legally logging approaches for currency in VMC, and there are also times you cannot legally log them for currency when in IMC.


Now, the Chief Counsel gave a legal interpretation in 1992 on how much of the approach must be flown and how low it must be taken. See the Slater interpretation, #92-5, quoted below:

Second, you questioned how low a pilot must descend (i.e., minimum descent altitude or decision height or full-stop landing) on the six instrument approaches he must log to meet the recent IFR experience requirements specified in FAR Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) (14 CFR Section 61.57(e)(1)(i)). You also asked if an instrument approach "counts" if only part of the approach is conducted in actual IFR conditions. Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) states that: No pilot may act as pilot in command under IFR, nor in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless he has, within the past 6 calendar months - (i) In the case of an aircraft other than a glider, logged at least 6 hours of instrument time under actual or simulated IFR conditions, at least 3 of which were in flight in the category of aircraft involved, including at least six instrument approaches, or passed an instrument competency check in the category of Ò aircraft involved. For currency purposes, an instrument approach under Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) may be flown in either actual or simulated IFR conditions. Further, unless the instrument approach procedure must be abandoned for safety reasons, we believe the pilot must follow the instrument approach procedure to minimum descent altitude or decision height.
However, they have never said how much of the approach must be flown in actual instrument conditions. I would note that it is probably a good thing that nobody has pressed the issue on how much of the approach must be flown in instrument conditions, as we probably could not stand the answer, which might be "all of it," in which case you'd not be able to count any approach you successfully completed, since if you were still in instrument conditions as DH/MDA, you wouldn't be able to land, so if you successfully landed, you wouldn't be able to count it. Best to let this sleeping dog continue to doze.

Now, to your specific questions...

Does an instrument approach constitute an approach under an IFR clearance if it's in full VMC?
No.

Does it mean anything below VFR? Meaning, I can break out at 2999ft and it counts?
No. The categorical weather descriptions of VFR/MVFR/IFR/LIFR are irrelevant to this issue.

Does it mean anything below MVFR, meaning I can break out at 999ft and it counts?
No, for the same reason.

Does it mean you have to have been in IMC at some point during your approach?
No, but you must have been in actual instrument conditions at some point, and as discussed above, that's not the same as being in IMC.

Does it mean you have to have had IMC after that FAF?
No, for the same reason, not to mention that the FAA doesn't specifically require that you have been in actual instrument conditions on the final segment (although personally, I don't log it if I wasn't).

Does it mean you have to have gone through some IMC before DA?
No, but you will have had to have gone through some actual instrument conditions somewhere between the IAF and the runway or missed approach point.

Does it mean it has to be IMC until minimums?
First, it never has to be in IMC. Second, as stated above, the FAA has said you must fly the approach all the way to MDA/DH without specifying exactly how much must have been in actual instrument conditions.
 
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If I can't do the approach legally without an IFR clearance, that's good enough for me.
You don't need an IFR clearance to perform approaches for 61.57(c) recent instrument experience, but you must do them in either actual or simulated instrument conditions. Most of the time, being actual instrument conditions means being in IMC (so you'd have to be on an IFR clearance), but as discussed above, not always. However, even in the absence of actual instrument conditions, you can grab a safety pilot, put on the hood, and shoot practice approaches under "simulated instrument conditions" in VMC under VFR, and have them count for 61.57(c) recent instrument experience. Just make sure you also satisfy 61.51 by logging the simulated instrument time, the type and location of the approaches, and the name of the safety pilot.
 
You don't need an IFR clearance to perform approaches for 61.57(c) recent instrument experience, but you must do them in either actual or simulated instrument conditions. Most of the time, being actual instrument conditions means being in IMC (so you'd have to be on an IFR clearance), but as discussed above, not always. However, even in the absence of actual instrument conditions, you can grab a safety pilot, put on the hood, and shoot practice approaches under "simulated instrument conditions" in VMC under VFR, and have them count for 61.57(c) recent instrument experience. Just make sure you also satisfy 61.51 by logging the simulated instrument time, the type and location of the approaches, and the name of the safety pilot.

I should have clarified - I meant logging in actual IMC without a safety pilot. But I see your point, theoretically I could do an approach under VFR minimums but not be in IMC. I wouldn't log it if I didn't touch the soup.
 
I should have clarified - I meant logging in actual IMC without a safety pilot. But I see your point, theoretically I could do an approach under VFR minimums but not be in IMC. I wouldn't log it if I didn't touch the soup.
Read again what I wrote regarding the Carr interpretation. Whether you're in IMC or not is irrelevant. Whether you're in actual instrument conditions is the only thing that counts. And the two are not the same -- you can be in IMC without being in actual instrument conditions (in which case you can't log it) or in actual instrument conditions without being in IMC (in which case you can log it).
 
Thanks Ron.

But this begs the even more interesting question - how can anyone be out of currency with these lax definitions? ;)
 
Thanks Ron.

But this begs the even more interesting question - how can anyone be out of currency with these lax definitions? ;)

End out up of the clag before hitting the IAF. Which is probably the majority of my flights. Around here most of them start in the 3000MSL range - which is 2200ish AGL. So OVC025, you will be out of the clouds before you even start the approach. So, no logging allowed. Even when I file IFR, probably only 5% of the flights do I end up flying any approach.

So, to get 6 approaches with only a 5% "success rate" I'd have to make 300 IFR/IMC/AIC flights in 6 months. Do the math.
 
Thanks Ron.
You're welcome.

But this begs the even more interesting question - how can anyone be out of currency with these lax definitions? ;)
Easy -- happens all the time, by my examination of logbooks of folks coming to me for IPC's and instrument refresher training. But the reality is that mere compliance with the 61.57(c) recent experience requirements doesn't even come close to ensuring true instrument flying proficiency (I've seen that often enough, too). The fact is that if you really do maintain true proficiency, you cannot help but meet those regulatory requirements several times over, and the recordkeeping is merely an administrative exercise in regulatory compliance. No doubt that is why in the last 20 years, only one case involving a violation of that section has reached the NTSB, and in that one, the pilot didn't even have an instrument rating, and 61.57(c) was only one of six sections violated (including no flight review, no instrument rating, disobeying a couple of flight rules, and the ubiquitous careless/reckless).
 
Now, the Chief Counsel gave a legal interpretation in 1992 on how much of the approach must be flown and how low it must be taken. See the Slater interpretation, #92-5, quoted below:

Ron, I've seen you quote this before but can't find it using the FAA CC search tool. Their Murphy interp from 2009 refers to it as well, but even if you have the search tool list all 1992 interps, Slater does not show up. Obviously you have a copy. Could you post it, or at least PM it to me?

Thanks.
 
But a Contact Approach could qualify for currency purposes.
 
Ron, I've seen you quote this before but can't find it using the FAA CC search tool.
The AGC-200 web site doesn't go back that far. If you really need a copy, you'll have to write to them, as I do not have a real, official, signed copy.
 
Strange rule.

It is obviously possible IRL to have a contact approach that has AIC until close to DA. In fact, my DPE told of a fogged in Long Beach approach where he went missed and just saw that the threshold to a crossing rwy was beginning to clear. He asked for contact app, cranked her around and landed with a crosswind.
 
Strange rule.

It is obviously possible IRL to have a contact approach that has AIC until close to DA.
There is no such thing as a DA associated with a contact approach, which is performed solely by visual reference ("contact", hence the name) to the ground. Thus, performing a contact approach does nothing to build proficiency at flying an instrument approach.

In fact, my DPE told of a fogged in Long Beach approach where he went missed and just saw that the threshold to a crossing rwy was beginning to clear. He asked for contact app, cranked her around and landed with a crosswind.
Your DPE has bigger cojones than I do. Generally speaking, that is the sort of use of a contact approach against which I strongly advise, as it's an invitation to disaster -- you're below circling MDA, and so have no protection against obstructions during the maneuver, and visibility so low you can't see them coming. If the weather is so low you can't legally/safely do a circling maneuver, you've got no business doing a contact approach, and aborting a missed approach once initiated is another common link in accidents.
 
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