Decline a SID II

[mcheathe]

There has been a lively discussion going on in another thread, “Can You Decline a Sid.” In order not to hijack that discussion, I am going to start another thread that will be over some similar topics as in the original.

See the scenario below and respond to the questions.

ATC (1) If you were the sector controller, what clearance would you issue to Cedar City FSS for relay to N843XB? You are aware that radar coverage North of PGA is marginal to non-existent below FL180.

ATC (2) If you already have traffic at the 65 DME NE of PGA, SW bound on V208 level at 14000, what clearance would you issue to Cedar City FSS for relay to N843XB?

Pilot (1) If you were the pilot, would you be attempting this flight?

Pilot (2) If yes, what is your plan for terrain and obstacle clearance?

Pilot (3) You know that the initial part of this flight will be in uncontrolled airspace. What services do you expect ATC to provide to you prior to entering controlled airspace?




Scenario:

N843XB, C182T/A has filed IFR flight plan departing from Cal Black Memorial (U96) located near Halls Crossing Utah. Requested route of flight is U96 PGA V208 JLI SEE. Requested altitude is 16000.

AWOS weather at U96 is 900 scattered, 1200 broken and solid overcast at 2100 AGL. Visibility is 1 ½ mile in light rain showers. Temperature is 58F. Cedar City FSS has several PIREPs over Southern Utah and Northern Arizona indicating there are several layers, broken to overcast, and the top of the cloud layers is 17000 to 18000 AMSL. No reports of icing.

The pilot is in contact with Cedar City FSS via the RCO and is requesting his clearance.

 

[roncachamp]

ATC (1) If you were the sector controller, what clearance would you issue to Cedar City FSS for relay to N843XB? You are aware that radar coverage North of PGA is marginal to non-existent below FL180.

As filed maintain one six thousand.

ATC (2) If you already have traffic at the 65 DME NE of PGA, SW bound on V208 level at 14000, what clearance would you issue to Cedar City FSS for relay to N843XB?

As filed maintain one two thousand.

Or...

Via direct PGA V293 GCN V208 then as filed; cross eight DME south of PGA at or below one three thousand, cross six DME north of GCN at or above one five thousand, maintain one six thousand.

The pilot may have his choice.

Pilot (1) If you were the pilot, would you be attempting this flight?

Pilot (2) If yes, what is your plan for terrain and obstacle clearance?

I'm not familiar enough with the C182T to answer those questions.

Pilot (3) You know that the initial part of this flight will be in uncontrolled airspace. What services do you expect ATC to provide to you prior to entering controlled airspace?

Game scores, witty repartee, etc.

What has this to do with declining a SID?

 

[Alexb2000]

Better be a T182T if you want to do as suggested.

 

[aterpster]

There has been a lively discussion going on in another thread, “Can You Decline a Sid.” In order not to hijack that discussion, I am going to start another thread that will be over some similar topics as in the original.

See the scenario below and respond to the questions.

ATC (1) If you were the sector controller, what clearance would you issue to Cedar City FSS for relay to N843XB? You are aware that radar coverage North of PGA is marginal to non-existent below FL180.

ATC (2) If you already have traffic at the 65 DME NE of PGA, SW bound on V208 level at 14000, what clearance would you issue to Cedar City FSS for relay to N843XB?

Pilot (1) If you were the pilot, would you be attempting this flight?

Pilot (2) If yes, what is your plan for terrain and obstacle clearance?

Pilot (3) You know that the initial part of this flight will be in uncontrolled airspace. What services do you expect ATC to provide to you prior to entering controlled airspace?




Scenario:

N843XB, C182T/A has filed IFR flight plan departing from Cal Black Memorial (U96) located near Halls Crossing Utah. Requested route of flight is U96 PGA V208 JLI SEE. Requested altitude is 16000.

AWOS weather at U96 is 900 scattered, 1200 broken and solid overcast at 2100 AGL. Visibility is 1 ½ mile in light rain showers. Temperature is 58F. Cedar City FSS has several PIREPs over Southern Utah and Northern Arizona indicating there are several layers, broken to overcast, and the top of the cloud layers is 17000 to 18000 AMSL. No reports of icing.

The pilot is in contact with Cedar City FSS via the RCO and is requesting his clearance.

What are the airport's surface winds? With an IFR RNAV (GPS) I could roll my own ODP quite nicely out of there using my GIS program.

 

[mcheathe]

For roncachamp: What has this to do with declining a SID?

It is a continuation of discussion of techniques for dealing with IFR departures from non-towered airports located in uncontrolled airspace.

For aterpster: What are the airport's surface winds?

Surface winds are 340 at 10.

 

[roncachamp]

For roncachamp: What has this to do with declining a SID?

It is a continuation of discussion of techniques for dealing with IFR departures from non-towered airports located in uncontrolled airspace.

Perhaps that would have been a better title.

 

[aterpster]

There has been a lively discussion going on in another thread, “Can You Decline a Sid.” In order not to hijack that discussion, I am going to start another thread that will be over some similar topics as in the original.

See the scenario below and respond to the questions.

ATC (1) If you were the sector controller, what clearance would you issue to Cedar City FSS for relay to N843XB? You are aware that radar coverage North of PGA is marginal to non-existent below FL180.

ATC (2) If you already have traffic at the 65 DME NE of PGA, SW bound on V208 level at 14000, what clearance would you issue to Cedar City FSS for relay to N843XB?

Pilot (1) If you were the pilot, would you be attempting this flight?

Pilot (2) If yes, what is your plan for terrain and obstacle clearance?

Pilot (3) You know that the initial part of this flight will be in uncontrolled airspace. What services do you expect ATC to provide to you prior to entering controlled airspace?




Scenario:

N843XB, C182T/A has filed IFR flight plan departing from Cal Black Memorial (U96) located near Halls Crossing Utah. Requested route of flight is U96 PGA V208 JLI SEE. Requested altitude is 16000.

AWOS weather at U96 is 900 scattered, 1200 broken and solid overcast at 2100 AGL. Visibility is 1 ½ mile in light rain showers. Temperature is 58F. Cedar City FSS has several PIREPs over Southern Utah and Northern Arizona indicating there are several layers, broken to overcast, and the top of the cloud layers is 17000 to 18000 AMSL. No reports of icing.

The pilot is in contact with Cedar City FSS via the RCO and is requesting his clearance.

Why call Cedar City? I would fly my carefully scoped out ODP, and first contact Denver Center level at 14,000 10 east of PGA VOR. I would advise that I have an IFR flight plan from over PGA to SEE, standing by for clearance. If necessary, I would hold clear of controlled airspace at 14,000 until they could work out my clearance.

 

[skidoo]

Why call Cedar City? I would fly my carefully scoped out ODP, and first contact Denver Center level at 14,000 10 east of PGA VOR. I would advise that I have an IFR flight plan from over PGA to SEE, standing by for clearance. If necessary, I would hold clear of controlled airspace at 14,000 until they could work out my clearance.

Don't you need an IFR clearance to operate in or through IMC even though you are in class G airspace? And if so, shouldn't you already have your clearance from PGA to SEE?

 

[roncachamp]

Don't you need an IFR clearance to operate in or through IMC even though you are in class G airspace?

No. If the flight is wholly within Class G airspace an IFR clearance is not required or even available. You do have to follow Instrument Flight Rules, of course, you need enough Class G airspace to allow compliance with minimum altitude and cruising altitude requirements.

And if so, shouldn't you already have your clearance from PGA to SEE?

Well, you'd be in a pickle if airborne in the crud and clearance was denied for some reason. Obtaining the clearance before departure is the way to go.

 

[aterpster]

No. If the flight is wholly within Class G airspace an IFR clearance is not required or even available. You do have to follow Instrument Flight Rules, of course, you need enough Class G airspace to allow compliance with minimum altitude and cruising altitude requirements.



Well, you'd be in a pickle if airborne in the crud and clearance was denied for some reason. Obtaining the clearance before departure is the way to go.

It's some 40 miles from takeoff before he would get to the boundary of the Class E airspace. How could ATC provide a clearance into the Class E when he is on the ground?

OTOH, he could call Denver 10 miles, or so, prior to the boundary of the Class E. His premise is that they wouldn't see him on radar at that altitude (although I believe they would at that location). So, he has an IFR flight plan in the system and there is sufficient Class G for him to hold and remain clear of the Class E if necessary. Wouldn't he be served in turn once they had an accurate report of his location, say on a PGA radial at a distance that is some 5 miles prior to the boundary of the Class E?

Another fine point: is he technically legal to climb to 14,000 while in the Class G, then fly level? I'm thinking that the MIA is probably 14,800 in that area. So, if they had someone being vector over him at 14,800 there would be a loss of separation. Or, does that matter since he is not subject to control or separation at that point?

The ODP I worked up would be 91.177 compliant to level at 12,000.

 

[comanchepilot]

Poor, Sid, no one likes him. He is going to get a complex.

 

[roncachamp]

It's some 40 miles from takeoff before he would get to the boundary of the Class E airspace. How could ATC provide a clearance into the Class E when he is on the ground?

Through FSS via the Cedar City RCO.

OTOH, he could call Denver 10 miles, or so, prior to the boundary of the Class E. His premise is that they wouldn't see him on radar at that altitude (although I believe they would at that location). So, he has an IFR flight plan in the system and there is sufficient Class G for him to hold and remain clear of the Class E if necessary. Wouldn't he be served in turn once they had an accurate report of his location, say on a PGA radial at a distance that is some 5 miles prior to the boundary of the Class E?

Probably. But if he can't be served what are his options? I don't see a downside to getting the clearance on the ground.

Another fine point: is he technically legal to climb to 14,000 while in the Class G, then fly level?

As long as his course is in the western half of the circle, yes.

I'm thinking that the MIA is probably 14,800 in that area. So, if they had someone being vector over him at 14,800 there would be a loss of separation. Or, does that matter since he is not subject to control or separation at that point?

Can't have a loss of separation with unknown traffic. Enroute traffic tends to be assigned cardinal altitudes so the lowest any traffic being worked by ATC would likely be is 15,000. The highest any traffic operating IFR in Class G airspace would likely be is 14,000.

The ODP I worked up would be 91.177 compliant to level at 12,000.

Your self-rolled ODP called for GPS, the aircraft in this scenario is a C182T/A.

 

[skidoo]

Your self-rolled ODP called for GPS, the aircraft in this scenario is a C182T/A.

I thought a C182T came standard as /G. Maybe he is filing as /A because his GPS is not functional?

 

[skidoo]

Probably. But if he can't be served what are his options? I don't see a downside to getting the clearance on the ground.

The prior discussion seemed to imply that one could not get a clearance from the ground. On this trip, Before I left the ground, I would want to know that I have a clearance before going IMC regardless of Class G or not. Why add another thing to think or worry about while possibly in IMC...

Your response implies that yes indeed one can obtain a clearance from the ground. I would hope that is true..

 

[aterpster]

Through FSS via the Cedar City RCO.



Probably. But if he can't be served what are his options? I don't see a downside to getting the clearance on the ground.

What do you think the clearance would be?

 

[roncachamp]

I thought a C182T came standard as /G. Maybe he is filing as /A because his GPS is not functional?

Or maybe he meant a Turbo 182, not a 182T.

 

[roncachamp]

The prior discussion seemed to imply that one could not get a clearance from the ground. On this trip, Before I left the ground, I would want to know that I have a clearance before going IMC regardless of Class G or not. Why add another thing to think or worry about while possibly in IMC...

Your response implies that yes indeed one can obtain a clearance from the ground. I would hope that is true..

Most IFR clearances are issued to aircraft on the ground, most of those involve flying through some Class G airspace before reaching controlled airspace. Usually it's just 700 feet of Class G airspace, but there is no set maximum distance.

 

[roncachamp]

What do you think the clearance would be?

See mesage #2.

 

[aterpster]

Or maybe he meant a Turbo 182, not a 182T.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rpG7BTvRCI

 

[aterpster]

See mesage #2.

Sounds like you would be betting on the come big time clearing him into controlled airspace from an airport 40 miles away without radar.

Beats me. I'd take the clearance.

 

[roncachamp]

Sounds like you would be betting on the come big time clearing him into controlled airspace from an airport 40 miles away without radar.

I don't think so, nonradar separation still works well in low traffic areas.

 

[skidoo]

Most IFR clearances are issued to aircraft on the ground, most of those involve flying through some Class G airspace before reaching controlled airspace. Usually it's just 700 feet of Class G airspace, but there is no set maximum distance.

Yes, that is like my home airport about 3000 ft MSL. Class G to 700 ft. But, MOCA is 8700 ft and MEA is 13,000 MSL. Radio reception is iffy below about 8K MSL. So, how is it controlled airspace between 3700 ft and 8700 ft or even 13000 ft? My understanding is that all VFR aircraft must comply with VFR minimums from clouds. For IFR, there would be only one IFR clearance in the area at one time, until radar contact. Is that correct? So, wouldn't I be cleared through that airspace, yet still be on my own until radar contact and comms established?

 

[roncachamp]

Yes, that is like my home airport about 3000 ft MSL. Class G to 700 ft. But, MOCA is 8700 ft and MEA is 13,000 MSL. Radio reception is iffy below about 8K MSL. So, how is it controlled airspace between 3700 ft and 8700 ft or even 13000 ft? My understanding is that all VFR aircraft must comply with VFR minimums from clouds. For IFR, there would be only one IFR clearance in the area at one time, until radar contact. Is that correct? So, wouldn't I be cleared through that airspace, yet still be on my own until radar contact and comms established?

There can be as many IFR aircraft in the area as can be separated with the tools available. What's your home airport?

 

[skidoo]

There can be as many IFR aircraft in the area as can be separated with the tools available. What's your home airport?

For my area, it sounds like one aircraft because I am told that a clearance holds up any other IFR aircraft approaching or departing.

8S1.

 

[roncachamp]

For my area, it sounds like one aircraft because I am told that a clearance holds up any other IFR aircraft approaching or departing.

8S1.

That's the nature of untowered fields.

 

[mcheathe]

For Skidoo:


If you look at the IFR En-route Low Altitude Chart L-13, almost the entire area from 20 miles North of Kalispell to 50 miles South of Missoula has a white background indicating that this area is controlled airspace, generally Class E in which the floor is either 1200 FT AGL or 700 FT AGL and can be down to the surface when associated with an IAP and other capabilities. It can also have another altitude designated as the floor, but they are not common. Look on the Great Falls Sectional Chart on V536 about 30 miles SE of Kalispell and you will see where the floor of the controlled airspace/Class E has been designated as 11,500 AMSL.

Polson (S81) lies almost directly beneath V231. Because the airspace you typically fly in is controlled/Class E or above, you must fly VFR with restrictions on visibility and clearance from clouds limitations or fly under an IFR clearance issued by ATC.

In uncontrolled airspace/Class G, you can fly VFR with visibility and distance from clouds restrictions that are reduced from those requirements in Class E airspace. You may also fly in IFR conditions with a few restrictions and without the requirement to obtain an IFR clearance from ATC. No one is providing separation service for you and you are responsible for maintaining obstruction clearance, 1000 FT or 2000 FT is designated Mountainous Areas, above terrain and obstacles. Don’t forget that all airspace from 14,500 AMSL to 18,000 is controlled airspace/Class E or higher.

Much of the airspace North and East of Kalispell to the Canadian border, below 14,500 is uncontrolled airspace/Class G. It is possible to fly IFR without a clearance from ATC between Browning (8SO) and Eureka (88M).

Be very careful when considering flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace/Class G. There are a lot of ways to make a mistake and the consequences are often deadly!

 

[Palmpilot]

I don't think so, nonradar separation still works well in low traffic areas.

Those of us who don't make trans-oceanic flights sometimes seem to forget that non-radar separation exists!

I really appreciate the efforts of controllers to help folks get clear on this stuff.

 

[aterpster]

Be very careful when considering flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace/Class G. There are a lot of ways to make a mistake and the consequences are often deadly!

Absolutely! And, there is and recently has been a rash of Class E airspace designations in those areas. The effective dates have not been coincident with the sectional charts so the only description is terse text in the front part of the applicable A/FD.

So, if you fail to plot those areas you could have a very unpleasant surprise thinking your IMC in a formerly Class G area.