Dear renters in my FBO, please stop breaking stuff

[poadeleted21]

Maybe join a club. Partnership is too much $$$ that I do not have.

I hate it when other people tell me how to spend my money but if you're renting glass panel airplanes at an FBO for any amount of time in a year, my calculations say you and 3 others would be money ahead with just a touch of luck and mid-60's vintage PA28. For me, as the only owner, my break even point over renting the local Cessna 150 was around 80hrs per year. I'll also apologize for suggesting someone buy a plane to save money... kinda hard to do that with a straight face.

 

[zaitcev]

3 hours seems like alot. Must be the cost of insuring such an expensive airplane.

I had no idea that an insurance requirement existed, unless you go into complex airplanes. Michael checked me out in 2.0 hours (over 1.4 of GCA's). I only had 75 hours in Cherokee at the time. He listed a litany of things that he verified in my logbook: Systems, Preflight, Taxi, Norm t/o, cruise, steep turns, Slow Flt, Normal ldg, Xwind ldg, Sim Eng Out. So I thought the checkout is like a mini-checkride, at the end of which CFI declares if you're safe to rent. The amount of time it takes depends. The hull value of N28GX is about the same as Skycatcher, I think. It was $135k new in 2011, because of all the electronics.

 

[Meanee]

I hate it when other people tell me how to spend my money but if you're renting glass panel airplanes at an FBO for any amount of time in a year, my calculations say you and 3 others would be money ahead with just a touch of luck and mid-60's vintage PA28. For me, as the only owner, my break even point over renting the local Cessna 150 was around 80hrs per year. I'll also apologize for suggesting someone buy a plane to save money... kinda hard to do that with a straight face.

Unfortunately, at my FBO, a glass equipped plane is the only thing you can fly with more than 1 passenger, unless you are willing to be at the airport at 6am.

 

[zaitcev]

BTW, guys, since we're on topic of checkouts: does everyone know about OpenAirplane? Its founder is trying to create a network of checkout-free rentals. I mean they aren't making you to take a driving test at Hertz, right?

 

[Meanee]

I saw an article in some AOPA magazine about OpenAirplane. Interesting concept but I don't think it will work well. OpenAirplane will take a cut of a rental fee and FBO must trust that "someone, somewhere" checked out a random person showing up at their door, to the FBO's standards.

 

[jesse]

OK fine.

Renting the 150 two times a month for a one hour flight:

$80 times two

Owning a plane (even if it were free):

Insurance - money every month
Tie Down / Hangar - money every month
Flights - buy gas and oil
Annual maintenance (or more than once a year) - costs money

If I don't fly for a month as a renter I pay zero. If I don't fly for a month as an owner I pay all the above costs. Once I am done paying off my PPL and not living paycheck to paycheck I'll let you know but for now I'm a renter for life.

FWIW, I just ran the numbers, as of right now the Flybaby has cost me: $332 per hour wet including purchase cost. $103 wet per hour without the purchase cost.

I suspect it'll decrease over time

 

[denverpilot]

Don't run the numbers. Just don't. Haha.

 

[flhrci]

I saw an article in some AOPA magazine about OpenAirplane. Interesting concept but I don't think it will work well. OpenAirplane will take a cut of a rental fee and FBO must trust that "someone, somewhere" checked out a random person showing up at their door, to the FBO's standards.

I read another article and they only take a 10% cut from an FBO that you visit, not your base FBO and it is only for providing the web app and connections to other pilots.

Looks like a good deal to me and Cessna is onboard and trying to get its pilot centers to get on with the program. I hope it works.

David

 

[gprellwitz]

I had no idea that an insurance requirement existed, unless you go into complex airplanes. Michael checked me out in 2.0 hours (over 1.4 of GCA's). I only had 75 hours in Cherokee at the time. He listed a litany of things that he verified in my logbook: Systems, Preflight, Taxi, Norm t/o, cruise, steep turns, Slow Flt, Normal ldg, Xwind ldg, Sim Eng Out. So I thought the checkout is like a mini-checkride, at the end of which CFI declares if you're safe to rent. The amount of time it takes depends. The hull value of N28GX is about the same as Skycatcher, I think. It was $135k new in 2011, because of all the electronics.

Avemco has a 5 hour transition requirement. I think the FAA was making a similar suggestion. Pilots transitioning to lighter weight airplanes or trikes have a poor accident history without transition training.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Being an owner isn't always as glamorous as it seems. Wait until you have 4 lessons in a week scheduled because you're trying to pseudo fast-track your instrument rating, and your spinner backplate cracks. Or you're planning on a 7+ hour cross-country only to find that you're missing a critical bolt. Or another airplane got towed into yours. You can't just grab another airplane. The airplane is yours through the good times of owership and the bad. Although I am very pro-ownership, it isn't the end-all be all and it brings its own challenges to the table.

 

[douglas393]

FWIW, I just ran the numbers, as of right now the Flybaby has cost me: $332 per hour wet including purchase cost. $103 wet per hour without the purchase cost.

I suspect it'll decrease over time

Having the ability to fly your own plane whenever you want is what you are paying for. My numbers in my 182 are somewhat less (I also fly it about 4 hours a week). Is it cheaper to rent. Definitely. Is it worht owning? For me yes, for others maybe not.

As for the OP is there another FBO within similar distance that has a better situation?

Doug

 

[douglas393]

I did not know that a normal checkout was required to move to an LSA.

I have never flown an LSA, but have read a number of articles concerning that they are a different animal than the non-LSA planes, and a number of crashes have occurred when pilots with solely non-LSA experience underestimated their ability to fly the LSA. The conclusion most of these articles came to is that because it is lighter and slower does not mean it is easier to fly.

Like I said I have no experience and am just reporting what I have read from a number of sources.

Doug

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I have never flown an LSA, but have read a number of articles concerning that they are a different animal than the non-LSA planes, and a number of crashes have occurred when pilots with solely non-LSA experience underestimated their ability to fly the LSA. The conclusion most of these articles came to is that because it is lighter and slower does not mean it is easier to fly.

Like I said I have no experience and am just reporting what I have read from a number of sources.

Doug

Different airplanes are different airplanes. All have their touchy spots and anyone who jumps in a different type without some sort of checkout is rolling the dice IMHO. A friend has a PC-12. He invited me to go along with him while he was getting his time in with an instructor for insurance purposes and suggested I fly the return leg to see if I liked the plane. He seemed surprised when I said "Sure, if the instructor is in the right seat."

 

[JHW]

3 hours seems like alot. Must be the cost of insuring such an expensive airplane.

I agree. When I bought our travel air, I had never set foot in any piston powered beechcraft and the insurance company wanted 1 hour of dual.

 

[MDeitch1976]

I have never flown an LSA, but have read a number of articles concerning that they are a different animal than the non-LSA planes, and a number of crashes have occurred when pilots with solely non-LSA experience underestimated their ability to fly the LSA. The conclusion most of these articles came to is that because it is lighter and slower does not mean it is easier to fly.

Like I said I have no experience and am just reporting what I have read from a number of sources.

Doug

When I transition from the LSA to a Non LSA, I will let you know what I notice being different.

 

[madtrader]

How so? I've never flown a skycatcher, but I have some time in a Remos and while it tends to drop a wing if you're not coordinated, the recovery is the same as it is in every other airplane.

From the SkyCatcher POH (bold emphasis is mine):

"Power-on stall recovery should be initiated by simultaneously lowering the nose while reducing power after which normal power-off stall recovery techniques should be applied."

I read the POH cover to cover before going flying (as I try to do for any aircraft I intend to get checked-out in) and missed this. I only learned it way after the fact from the Chief CFI while discussing LSA at a safety seminar on transition training. I'm not that experienced, so maybe there are other aircraft where you do this, but everything else I've flown had you maintain or increase power during recovery.

 

[MDeitch1976]

From the SkyCatcher POH (bold emphasis is mine):
"Power-on stall recovery should be initiated by simultaneously lowering the nose while reducing power after which normal power-off stall recovery techniques should be applied."

This is odd. After you remove the power, are you then adding full power back in for the power off stall?

 

[MAKG1]

Spin recovery requires power to idle (PARE) because power can aggravate the spin. Maybe it doesn't recover well (i.e., without incipient spinning) at full power?

 

[MDeitch1976]

Spin recovery requires power to idle (PARE) because power can aggravate the spin. Maybe it doesn't recover well (i.e., without incipient spinning) at full power?

Looks like he said for a Power On Stall. Spin makes sense.
Could the manufacturer change the power on stall recovery procedure? Possibly, the POH wasn't updated? Is it normal for a flight school to change what the manufacturer uses for recovery procedure?

 

[MAKG1]

Yeah, I'm speculating that a full power recovery from a stall will cause an incipient spin. Maybe to the right due to the loss of P-factor.

I have no experience in a Skycatcher. Maybe someone (an instructor?) more appropriate can comment on what it really does.

 

[tonycondon]

i did a few stalls when i flew the skycatcher. i seem to recall it stalled about like a 150. clean break, would drop a wing if you let it.

 

[zaitcev]

Well, I always cut the power if the nose points down. I think the only airplane that would not overspeed itself in a second of full power was 140 hp Cherokee (maybe Remos, too, I don't remember it well). It did not drop the nose as much as others either. Then as soon as nose goes up, I go full power to arrest any remaining sink.

Remember 2010 crash of An-148? They had AF-447-like situation with lost airspeed, but instead of dialing it up like French crew did, Ukrainians dialed it down. In moments the jet oversped and fell apart. Everyone onboard perished.

It's not like I'm afraid that our basic singles would come apart from flutter at Vd, more that Va is so low, and I may inadvertedly break the tail by pulling too hard. Maybe I'm wrong, but where's the rush to go down?

 

[richas]

Think i'm getting off the OP's topic but wanted to say my checkout in the cessna 162 skycatcher was 3 hours, as required by the fbo/insurance, included the list above in the first lesson. The second checkout lesson emphasized the Garmin 300 PFD and MFD (you could get a degree in all-things-garmin; there is so much that can be done with the G300). And the third and final lesson . . . was really flying around and putting it together.

Prior to the 3-hour LSA checkout I had been checked out to fly steam-guage 172Ns.

(ironically, 2 days after i was checked out in the skycatcher, the plane has been down in maintenance to address an AD (something related to reinforcing the wing struts - dont know for sure, but I'll find out whenevr it comes out of surgery).

When I bought my pacer I had to get a TW endorsement (9 hours) and then fly solo for another 10.

FWIW.

 

[madtrader]

Yeah, I'm speculating that a full power recovery from a stall will cause an incipient spin. Maybe to the right due to the loss of P-factor.

I have no experience in a Skycatcher. Maybe someone (an instructor?) more appropriate can comment on what it really does.

The speculation we had was Cessna was being really cautious about incipient spin. Remember they crashed 2 of them doing spins while flight testing. They added the lower vertical stabilizer section as a result. Here's a blog post from the Kings about it:

http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2009/05/05/skycatcher-spin-accidents—hurray-for-cessnas/

i did a few stalls when i flew the skycatcher. i seem to recall it stalled about like a 150. clean break, would drop a wing if you let it.

I've not flown a 150, but I have about 60 hours in 152s and 40 in the SkyCatcher. Stalls really don't seem to be a big deal. Certainly keep it coordinated, but doing "normal" power-on stall recovery seemed fine when I did them. I follow the POH now, but it is hard to break old habits.

 

[madtrader]

Looks like he said for a Power On Stall. Spin makes sense.
Could the manufacturer change the power on stall recovery procedure? Possibly, the POH wasn't updated? Is it normal for a flight school to change what the manufacturer uses for recovery procedure?

I quoted the POH as downloaded from Cessna's website. The school didn't change the procedure. You can check it out for free. The page is 4-41 in the POH.

 

[MDeitch1976]

I quoted the POH as downloaded from Cessna's website. The school didn't change the procedure. You can check it out for free. The page is 4-41 in the POH.

I misinterpreted you. I thought the instructor was teaching you something different. If that is what Cessna wants, than that is what I would do.


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