I had a situation where my plane was fully fueled after which some friends showed up at the airport asking me to accompany me on my planned flight. The W&B was not working out with the additional weight and would require defueling the aircraft. The FBO wanted $0.95 per gallon to defuel and wouldn't credit the cost of said fuel. Can I ask the potential passengers to pay all defueling associated costs plus the cost of the lost fuel? Or, do I run afoul of the FARs?
De-fueling
- Thread starter Luigi
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poadeleted20
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Yes, you would be running afoul of the regulations. The gist of it is they asked you for the ride, so you cannot take any compensation from them.
And the FBO is within their rights to charge you for this because most aircraft fuel suppliers prohibit their retailers from reselling fuel that's been in someone's airplane due to contamination concerns. That means the FBO loses the fuel as well as having to drain and dispose of it somewhere other than in an airplane. The only way the FBO is going to eat that cost is if you told them in advance that you were carrying passengers/baggage requiring a specific maximum fuel load, and then the FBO overfueled the airplane after your request.
And the FBO is within their rights to charge you for this because most aircraft fuel suppliers prohibit their retailers from reselling fuel that's been in someone's airplane due to contamination concerns. That means the FBO loses the fuel as well as having to drain and dispose of it somewhere other than in an airplane. The only way the FBO is going to eat that cost is if you told them in advance that you were carrying passengers/baggage requiring a specific maximum fuel load, and then the FBO overfueled the airplane after your request.
Why would that be running afoul as long as it fell within the pro rata limitations? It's expense directly incurred by this particular flight.
RJM62
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That is for the flight itself, the flight itself incurred this expense.
It seems to me that defueling is a detrimental cost vs. a beneficial cost, i.e. no gain realized. Therefore, since I wasn't asking for fuel money, or engine reserve money I can't see how I would be receiving any actual "compensation". As it was I offered them a rain check!
Sac Arrow
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But there was gain realized. It allows you to perform the flight within W&B limitations where otherwise you wouldn't.
kgruber
Final Approach
Flightcraft used to give me fuel for my Cessna 140 that they got from defueling.
I used to get all the fuel we pulled out of planes for maintenance.
I hear you Sac, but I think it is a stretch, as it was I continued on my merry way without sharing, as the additional cost would have been wasteful . It is one thing to toss perfectly good fuel, but to absorb the cost of the actual removal? If I had jerry cans I would have kept it!
What we need is more Govt. control!
MSPAviator
Cleared for Takeoff
You could have dumped it on the ground for free.
Politically incorrect, even for me!
(emphasis added)
If you're worried about running afoul of 61.113, I don't think claiming defueling as a flight expense would "fly".
FAR 61.113 said:
OTOH, Who the hell is to know?
Luigi, how many gallons are we talking about? Is it something a few laps around the pattern could solve? Also, could access to a siphon tube and a couple of 5-gal jerry cans have solved the problem of paying for the defueling AND losing the fuel off-loaded as well?
ARFlyer
En-Route
I've only had to de-fuel once and that was after a FBO screw up. I requested only the inboards to be fueled. They ended up also filling the aux tanks and putting me out of W&B. They ended up eating the cost of the after hour A&P and the 30 gals of fuel.
It would have been approx. 25 gallons! 3 Big guys!
Hmmm, it would seem to me that defueling to meet legal requirements would be a fuel related expense.
Hmmm, it would seem to me that defueling to meet legal requirements would be a fuel related expense.
I can understand your point. Defueling just seemed punitive in nature, hence one shouldn't have to pay twice? i.e. pay for the fuel, pay to get rid of the fuel, plus the realized loss of the cost of the fuel.
I Remember I was taught to keep the tanks full to avoid water condensation, I think I won't be doing that anymore.
JHW
En-Route
OP, you are making this too hard. Just walk down to the first open t-hangar you see and casually mention you need help getting rid of some avgas.
Morgan3820
En-Route
As this seems to come up with some regularity, does anyone actually know firsthand anyone that got busted by the FAA for taking in excess of costs to fly a friend around? I understand the rules, approximately but short of it coming out in an accident investigation, how would the fAA find out. Most of my friends barely know that the FAA even exists, let alone the rules. Firsthand accounts please.
Greg Bockelman
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I was taught basically the same thing. But in 37 years of flying, i have never found water in the fuel that I could not relate directly to a bad gas cap.
While condensation is theoretically possible, I don't see it as much of an issue.
poadeleted20
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That, and the fact that the passengers asked for a ride, which could indicate willingness to take anyone who asked in return for compensation.
poadeleted20
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It's not free if the authorities see you do it -- ask ERAU what that cost them (think six figures). I suspect the FBO would have had a cow if they'd seen it, too.
poadeleted20
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If it's in a rental plane, and you dump it without flying the hours it would have fueled, you haven't paid for it even once. Remember that the FBO recovers the cost of the fuel that goes in their rental planes by charging a fixed amount per flight hour. If you don't fly the hours, you haven't paid for the fuel. OTOH, they've already paid rtheir supplier for that fuel, not to mention the labor, equipment, and overhead charges to store it and put it in the plane. Further, there are labor, overhead, and equipment costs for the defueling, hence the addition 95 cents/gallon to defuel.
As I said, the way to handle this is to make advance arrangements any time you will need fuel load limited in a rental plane. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of whatever fuel load is in the plane when you arrive.
poadeleted20
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Add my experience to Greg's and you have 82 years of flying which says condensation isn't a significant issue
poadeleted20
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I gather you accept the rules are as discussed, but you only want to know about cases where someone got caught violating them, and only from those with firsthand knowledge of the case? I can't help you with that other than to say the FAA doesn't go looking for such violations.