I flew up to Kent State University (1G3) from Tampa and as I was getting ready to depart 1G3, a friendly gentleman working the ramp sprayed the wings with some kind of garden sprayer that he had to pump. He told me they were using it on all the university aircraft and it was to remove and prevent frost. I'll admit I have never seen this before and I am interested in learning more about what it is and what it does. I'm interested if anyone here uses this as well and what exactly is in the garden sprayer? Thanks.
De-frost?
- Thread starter JC150
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NoHeat
En-Route
THat's nice of them. I'd guess it was some kind of glycol. Ethylene glycol, propylene glycol, etc. it is used for deicing.
Some GA planes have an anti icing feature called TKS, which oozes a fluid onto the leading edges when you turn a pump on, usually while in flight. TKS is 85% glycol.
I have never seen the garden sprayer, but it makes sense.
Some GA planes have an anti icing feature called TKS, which oozes a fluid onto the leading edges when you turn a pump on, usually while in flight. TKS is 85% glycol.
I have never seen the garden sprayer, but it makes sense.
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Clark1961
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well glycol of some sort...propylene would be better from an environmental point of view
to the OP - look up TKS fluid
NoHeat
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You are right. And I was editing my post on that point, after reading wikipedia, and saw that you had corrected me.
Clark1961
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Best I can tell the change to propylene glycol is good without many real world problems in systems designed for it. Even Cat is using it now in their large stationary engines.
For open systems like deicing it reduces the operator's libility - kill one migratory bird and there are very large fines.
HighFlyingA380
Cleared for Takeoff
I've rented from several places that had this. Normally it was just standard auto windshield wiper fluid. Obviously nowhere near the performance of actual de/anti-ice fluids, but works just fine for frost accumulation.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Potable water system RV Anti Freeze. I do the same thing but to speed the action I put the (steel) garden sprayer on a stove to heat the fluid to as warm as I have time for. Works great and no, there are no pink stains on my plane.
Just curious, what's would be the difference in effectiveness between the propylene, TKS fluid, and RV antifreeze? Would they all remove frost? Do any of these products help after takeoff or simply to remove frost on the ground? Thanks for the responses
Jeff Oslick
Final Approach
I'd look for the product/mix with the lowest freezing point, and know what the freezing point is for the mix ratio you are using. You don't want the stuff finding a critical place, like a control surface hinge, freezing up after you apply it as you climb into colder air.
dans2992
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Stewartb
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Stewartb
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Somebody asked if de-icer helps during a flight. No. All I want is to get rid of ice so that I'm comfortable departing. A little frost doesn't warrant deicing. Ice that got through mesh covers or froze when moisture condensed under solid covers is a problem. Once you get moving sublimation will remove any residual ice and frost. Never deice until you're sure you're going. No need to allow the slurry time to re-freeze.
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Hank S
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I've heard that car windshield deicing sorry us good for wings and tails, but keep it off the (plastic) windshield of your plane. This works for occasional use, as it's undoubtedly more expensive. Take a can when you travel.
MAKG1
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MAKG
Most of it is ethylene glycol, but it's not at all hard to find propylene glycol. Pick your favorite auto parts store. Freezing point is the same as inside a cold engine block -- 50/50 down to -30 F.
Clark1961
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Most folks don't put toxic liquids in their potable water systems. Ethylene glycol is moderately toxic - it'll kill small animals or small humans. About all that propylene glycol will do is clear up any possible constipation....
MAKG1
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MAKG
Potable water antifreeze?
You'd be nuts to put anything in there. Keep it drained or heated.
Ethanol would keep it from freezing, but has obvious effects.
No need to use potable deicer on your airplane.
TEFLONSEAN
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Teflonsean
Please learn about LD 50 about the household products you use.
Most are more toxic than you think....but your not ingesting gallons of it. So it won't harm you unless you have a death wish.
Same with any glycol product....the drips that would come off a wing aren't going to hurt any small animal or human.
Please take this environmental crap somewhere else.
Clark1961
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maybe you need the laxative effect of propylene glycol...
Clark1961
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Same with any glycol product....the drips that would come off a wing aren't going to hurt any small animal or human.
Please take this environmental crap somewhere else.
ummm, no....you're living in a dream world
Stewartb
Final Approach
Unless you're using a catchment system to collect your de-icing fluid it's be wise to use a product that doesn't need it. RV anti freeze is as common as windshield washer fluid in cold climates. Where guys like me occasionally use deicing fluid. If you don't have any practical knowledge or experience using it why would you be compelled to share your lack of knowledge and familiarity?
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Zeldman
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Yeah, propylene glycol is a much better fluid to use, hopefully ethylene glycol will disappear soon. I haven't heard any issues with mixing them on top up, is there a problem with that you know?
Please learn about LD 50 about the household products you use.
Most are more toxic than you think....but your not ingesting gallons of it. So it won't harm you unless you have a death wish.
Same with any glycol product....the drips that would come off a wing aren't going to hurt any small animal or human.
Please take this environmental crap somewhere else.
The problem is it is sweet which indicates a caloric value to animals seeking calories, so they ingest all of it they can, and they die. Ethylene glycol kills all sorts of stuff including pets and children every year, that's why the industry is switching.
Clark1961
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is there a problem with that you know?
I have not heard of any specific problems with the products that a marketed as compatible. Supposedly when propylene glycol was initially on the market it wasn't compatible with ethylene glycol systems and mixing would result in coagulation. I never tested the two so don't know if that was just a story or not.
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Bob Gardner
I beg to differ. What we refer to as frost is a zillion tiny drag fences. There has been at least one accident this season already where a frosted airplane could not climb out of ground effect (wish I had saved the reference). That is why pilots should rely on feel rather than sight when doing the preflight.
When it is present, frost exists on most of the airframe, unlike "airframe icing," which is pretty much leading edges and small radius items like antennas. Cleaning off the wing and horizontal stab is the least we can do.
Bob Gardner
Clark1961
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The voice of experience here..??
yup - next time you prep for a colonoscopy look at what you are given for the clean-out phase
And while you're laughing, we all get there at age 50. No reason not to have the 'scope shoved up yer butt to see if there are any potential problems.
denverpilot
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People use it in potable water systems on RVs every year. You flush it before you use the system again, but it won't kill you. Usually packaged as a 50/50 mix with water and dyed pink. About a buck a gallon at Walmart. You'll see pallets of the stuff on display around October in the automotive section.
Zeldman
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Been there, done that... And I am not pushing 60, I am pulling 50....
And good advice on anyone approaching that age or have a family history of problems there. For me it was preventative maintanence and insurance took care of all the bill.
I plan on living forever... so far all is well....
TEFLONSEAN
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Teflonsean
Understand this....but we are not talking about the dummies who are leaving their drain buckets full of this in their garage for their pets to drink. Which make it a problem for the rest of responsible humans.
We are talking about de icing a plane....in which pools of glycol are unlikely to be found. Let alone pets or children licking the asphalt at an airport.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Do what suits you. I'll do the same. I fly all winter and have my own threshold of frost contamination and whether to go or not. Which is why I can speak to deicing a small airplane in real life. My comments are a PIREP, not an imaginary internet story. And FWIW, I've never parked on or operated from asphalt. My deicer runoff goes onto frozen gravel or frozen rivers and my dog is always present.
Attachments
De icing planes leaves large puddles of ethylene glycol lying on the ground. There is wildlife all over airports, not to mention plenty f dogs and cats. It's just a bad idea when it is unnecessary. The dollar saved is not worth it.
The FAA used to run around with this desk top plexiglass wind tunnel that had a wing they could cool and create frost on. The effects of just a bit of frost was quite interesting. You probably don't notice because of the increase in performance in the frosty weather.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Frost can be smooth or rough. That's what matters. That and the proportion of the wing that's contaminated. Even with wing covers I get a little ice on the wings pretty regularly. Sometimes flying it is the best way to get it off. I'm not advocating reckless disregard but sometimes a little frost isn't reason to ground the airplane. Guys who encounter frost and ice usually can seek advice from their peers around them. That's the best way to learn.
I have seen old planes with terrible paint jobs and the surface looked and felt like alligator skins.... If surface contamination is that bad, will the planes with rough paint not be able to get out of ground effect too?
Yep, the end lesson of the class was to smooth down the frost before trying to take off, with laminar flow wings being more critical to reach aft as far as possible.
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
So changing the topic from rectal procedures back to airplanes....
A garden sprayer filled with RV antifreeze or deicing windshield washer fluid is a good, harmless thing to use for frost? Doesn't need to be diluted? Do you wipe it down after spraying, or just spray it and leave it?
What about the windscreen and other windows?
A garden sprayer filled with RV antifreeze or deicing windshield washer fluid is a good, harmless thing to use for frost? Doesn't need to be diluted? Do you wipe it down after spraying, or just spray it and leave it?
What about the windscreen and other windows?