DC FRZ Bust...

HIGHwing said:
By the way, the cumulative number of GA incursions into the ADIZ in 2006 was Four Thousand Seven Hundred and change. I've heard abosolutely every excuse in the book. I'm bored with it, fact is, collectively - we apparently can't navigate.
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Are "incursions into the ADIZ" actual busts or near the fringe?

The reason I ask is that at some airports such as FME (Tipton), you'd bust by climbing to pattern altitude before turning to crosswind in some a/c.
 
The adiz extends to the surface and FME is inside it. Perhaps you mean the Class B space? If you went runway heading you would eventually hit the edge of the surface cut out for BWI but you were inside the adiz from takeoff.
 
SkyHog said:
Hmm, I just looked at a sectional for the area....I'm actually going to change my opinion.

The SFRA is MUCH smaller than the ADIZ was. This is actually almost acceptable. Its a slap in the face to call GA a threat that requires any kind of SFRA there, but hell, we have similar restrictions around the Grand Canyon, and people deal with that....
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No, it's not similar at all.

There are spots in the Grand Canyon that you can't fly through, but there are corridors all over the place and you never have to talk to anyone or get any permission. And it's there to mitigate the very real noise factor caused by us, not the very unreal "threat".
 
HIGHwing said:
By the way, the cumulative number of GA incursions into the ADIZ in 2006 was Four Thousand Seven Hundred and change. I've heard abosolutely every excuse in the book. I'm bored with it, fact is, collectively - we apparently can't navigate.
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Do those 4700 include the Mooney they wanted to bust that was actually out in Arizona that day? What about Phil Boyer's wife, who had the fancy equipment aboard to prove that she wasn't really in the ADIZ?

"We" certainly screw up, but "they" do too.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
What about Phil Boyer's wife, who had the fancy equipment aboard to prove that she wasn't really in the ADIZ?
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Keep in mind that in this particular case, the bust did occur -- the only question was who did it. After confirming by use of her Mode S squawk that the tags had been swapped when their tracks crossed, they were able to identify the other plane, and that's who finally ate that bust. But even if you want to quibble about that other one you mentioned, 4699 busts is still unacceptably bad for us.
 
and here's another one. I was shooting a approach into ESN under the hood with a instructor and the approach called for a fix near the old adiz that was defined by a radial off BWI. Both the instructor and and I had called for a briefing and neither of us were informed of a notam that said the radial was being blocked by contruction equipment at BWI. We headed towards the ADIZ expecting the radial to guide us and when we did not get the needle swing we strayed into the ADIZ. My insrutor filed a NASA form and that keep him from losing his CFI ticket and they also tried to come after me but could not due to my status as under instruction and not PIC. It was nasty and should not have happened but it counted as a bust for the records.
 
...and yet another...

Someone I know was flying IFR near the ADIZ (as it was at the time) and was given a clearance that included departure heading and radar vectors and thence as filed.

Heading was flown but radar vectors remained un-issued. After a few queries while flying assigned departure heading ATC finally complains to "turn heading 180 now!"

Not all airspace infringements are dopey pilot tricks.
 
jtheune said:
and here's another one. I was shooting a approach into ESN under the hood with a instructor and the approach called for a fix near the old adiz that was defined by a radial off BWI. Both the instructor and and I had called for a briefing and neither of us were informed of a notam that said the radial was being blocked by contruction equipment at BWI.
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If it was a published NOTAM, you were responsible for it, and FSS won't tell you about it unless you ask for it specifically. In any event, your instructor should have had the situational awareness to realize that you were heading into the ADIZ no matter what the VOR said.
 
dmccormack said:
...and yet another...

Someone I know was flying IFR near the ADIZ (as it was at the time) and was given a clearance that included departure heading and radar vectors and thence as filed.

Heading was flown but radar vectors remained un-issued. After a few queries while flying assigned departure heading ATC finally complains to "turn heading 180 now!"

Not all airspace infringements are dopey pilot tricks.
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True, but in the case you describe, the first thing that happens is Huntress asks the controller what's going on with the airplane he's controlling. When the controller says "oops," the pilot is off the hook. But that's a far cry from the event which started this thread.
 
HIGHwing said:
I wish they would open the facility so you could watch pilot after pilot navigate, and violate over and over and over again.
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They do - Potomac Tracon has open houses, every other month or more frequently. And we get to watch the scopes during the tour. Highly recommended - sign up on SPANS at www.faasafety.gov.
 
Ron Levy said:
True, but in the case you describe, the first thing that happens is Huntress asks the controller what's going on with the airplane he's controlling. When the controller says "oops," the pilot is off the hook. But that's a far cry from the event which started this thread.
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Agreed -- but the Controller covers himself with a nice loud "Turn to heading 180 immediately!"

Of course it must be the pilot.

I wonder how many of the incursions were similar gaffes?
 
dmccormack said:
Agreed -- but the Controller covers himself with a nice loud "Turn to heading 180 immediately!"

Of course it must be the pilot.
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The tapes answer that question.
I wonder how many of the incursions were similar gaffes?
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No idea, but I've not yet heard of a pilot being issued an ADIZ violation for following a controller's instructions.
 
Ron Levy said:
The tapes answer that question.
No idea, but I've not yet heard of a pilot being issued an ADIZ violation for following a controller's instructions.
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True -- But is anyone analyzing the tapes and removing from the total incursions which may be due to controller instruction or error?
 
Ron Levy said:
If it was a published NOTAM, you were responsible for it, and FSS won't tell you about it unless you ask for it specifically. In any event, your instructor should have had the situational awareness to realize that you were heading into the ADIZ no matter what the VOR said.
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Except that ESN was the destination of the flight and I have always gotten notams of equipment out of service from flight service and also my instructor did realize we had gone further west then we should have and turn me back the other way but it's rather hard to spot a imaginary line. Particulary when your navigation equipment is telling you otherwise.
 
jtheune said:
Except that ESN was the destination of the flight and I have always gotten notams of equipment out of service from flight service and also my instructor did realize we had gone further west then we should have and turn me back the other way but it's rather hard to spot a imaginary line. Particulary when your navigation equipment is telling you otherwise.
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Your instructor needs to explain "published NOTAMs" better. FSS does not give them unless explicitly requested. Also, the NOTAMs FSS gives change when you're getting a VFR vs IFR briefing. In any event, when operating VFR, your instructor remains responsible for staying out whether the VOR is working or not.
 
Then there are far too many pilots flying VFR around DC.
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That was my thinking. Why the **** would you fly VFR anywhere near that thing and chance it? Once I get my PPL and instrument rating, you won't be seeing me fly anything close to DC and even not close to it, I'll file IFR for anything but the shortest of flights.
 
SteveinMichigan said:
That was my thinking. Why the **** would you fly VFR anywhere near that thing and chance it? Once I get my PPL and instrument rating, you won't be seeing me fly anything close to DC and even not close to it, I'll file IFR for anything but the shortest of flights.
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Really? If I lived around DC I think one of my frequent flights would be to circle the SFRA repeatedly, VFR, squawking 1200.

Maybe find where the airlines approach and just circle there, making the FAA work harder.
 
It's not really that hard to work with the ADIZ/SFRA. You file and you talk and that's about it. It's a little more work then anywhere else but it's not the end of the world. My attitude may be colored by the fact that I've always had to deal with the b space. Before hand I could get in and out without a b clearance but it was right there and you had to be aware of it.
 
There were two incursions that day; mine and the other guy. Mine was first but I landed before the 16's could intercept so they were diverted to the other guy. Heading for 2W5 (Maryland), I was flying a Cherokee 180 PA-28. My incursion was due to an in-flight emergency and subsequent emergency landing at the first field I saw (I briefly considered the highway until I saw Hyde Field). By the time I cleared the runway the CG helo's showed up and wagged at me when I acknowledged them. I immediately called Potamac TRACON and explained the situation. After a couple more phone calls they told me there would be no charges due to the emergent nature of my arrival.

That said, I would fly in the SFRA again. It could have turned out much worse but, at least in my brief experience that day, the guys in the black suits were reasonable that day. I was in contact with TRACON up until the last few moments before my electrical system failed.
 
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Wingnut said:
There were two incursions that day; mine and the other guy. Mine was first but I landed before the 16's could intercept so they were diverted to the other guy. I was flying a Cherokee 180 PA-28. My incursion was due to an in-flight emergency and subsequent emergency landing at the first field I saw (I briefly considered the highway until I saw Hyde Field). By the time I cleared the runway the CG helo's showed up and wagged at me when I acknowledged them. I immediately called Potamac TRACON and explained the situation. After a couple more phone calls they told me there would be no charges due to the emergent nature of my arrival.
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Wingnut, glad you made it down safely.

If I can ask... what was the nature of your emergency?

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Wingnut said:
There were two incursions that day; mine and the other guy. Mine was first but I landed before the 16's could intercept so they were diverted to the other guy. Heading for 2W5 (Maryland), I was flying a Cherokee 180 PA-28. My incursion was due to an in-flight emergency and subsequent emergency landing at the first field I saw (I briefly considered the highway until I saw Hyde Field). By the time I cleared the runway the CG helo's showed up and wagged at me when I acknowledged them. I immediately called Potamac TRACON and explained the situation. After a couple more phone calls they told me there would be no charges due to the emergent nature of my arrival.

That said, I would fly in the SFRA again. It could have turned out much worse but, at least in my brief experience that day, the guys in the black suits were reasonable that day. I was in contact with TRACON up until the last few moments before my electrical system failed.
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I'm very pleased that everyone recognized your use of emergency authority and that it was justified. If you'd like to share the details, I think it would be very helpful. I know there are pilots out there that might choose an off-airport landing outside the ADIZ/FRZ rather than an airport inside in an emergency, and that's NOT what anyone wants. Your story might help allay those fears.
 
Details and Nature of Emergency (and a slight admission of a technical error)

I am a low-time, VFR pilot.
This was my first flight into or near the SFRA/FRZ. In preparation I researched my destination apt, possible alternates, SUA's, and procedures. I took the FAA course and passed the required test. I called the destination apt to get acquainted with it as much as possible. I even used Google Earth to familiarize myself with the area from my planned altitude. The flight from Ga was relatively uneventful and very pleasant. As I came close to the SFRA I made the required contact with Potomac and received my transponder code and was told, as expected, to remain clear of the class bravo and given a gentle reminder to be aware of Quantico. In order to remain underneath the inner-most shelf of the class bravo as I approched 2W5 from the SSW I had to fly at 2300 msl. I had about a 20 knot tail at this time and was making 127 knots GS. Despite my efforts I found myself insufficiently familiar with the terrain (from that altitude) and was unable to locate 2W5 immediately. But I knew I was close and I was looking and I was aware of my proximity to the FRZ a mere 4 nm north of my approximate position (at 127 knots that is less than 2 mins flying time). Then things went bad; ATC was asking me if I had 2W5 in sight and asking about my altitude when the radio went silent. I knew I was in violation without a radio and immediately squawked 7600 and turned left to leave the area (all the while troubleshooting). Then my GPS failed, my transponder failed, and my fuel gauges failed. So, I had a total electrical failure, at 2300 msl, 127 knots GS, less than 90 seconds from the FRZ and at this point, not entirely sure of my fuel (post flight examination proved that I had sufficient fuel as I had calculated but I remembered from training to trust the fuel gauges only when they read empty). I needed to land; too many pieces of my pie had already been used up and my personal margins were eroding. In my mind I declared an emergency (there was no one to talk to). I looked for a place to land and briefly considered the highway when I saw Hyde field. I made for it. I failed to consider the tail and made a go around and then a very hot but otherwise respectable landing. I taxied clear and contacted TRACON and, well, you know the rest. The only requirement they gave me was to get the airplane airworthy and have a pinned pilot fly it out of the FRZ where I could continue my trip.

Things I learned: 1.) Pilotage is still a great tool to keep in your flight bag. Know where you are and do not completely trust any one method of navigation for the duration of the flight.
2.) Do not casually scan the gauges in the cockpit. I had sufficient information (the ammeter) prior to failure to have anticipated it. I just got comfortable with my scan and failed to process what that gauge was telling me.
3.) Always, always, always know where the surface wind is.

Things I did right: 1.) Knew the procedures for the airspace and squawked 7600 immediately when the radio failed. This alerted TRACON that I was indeed having problems before the total electrical failure.
2.) Landed immediately after penetrating the FRZ and called TRACON.

Footnote: the electrical failure was caused by a small leak in the crankcase that sprayed oil on the alternator. This caused the alternator to go offline and eventually the battery was exhausted.

The kind folks at 2W5, VKX, W32 are a superb bunch of people and most helpful to my girlfriend and me during this trip. Many thanks and blue skies to them all.


TMetzinger said:
I'm very pleased that everyone recognized your use of emergency authority and that it was justified. If you'd like to share the details, I think it would be very helpful. I know there are pilots out there that might choose an off-airport landing outside the ADIZ/FRZ rather than an airport inside in an emergency, and that's NOT what anyone wants. Your story might help allay those fears.
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astanley said:
Wingnut, glad you made it down safely.

If I can ask... what was the nature of your emergency?

Cheers,

-Andrew
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