Day VFR minimum equipment?

airguy

airguy

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airguy
My 172 is going into the shop for a dead turn coordinator. It's under warranty but has to go back to the shop for work, so could easily be 2-weeks turnaround. It's been a long time since I read through the required equipment list and I don't remember off the top of my head - can I fly the airplane day VFR without the TC while waiting for it to come back, or is it grounded?
 
You might also want to review 91.213(d) for the procedure in this case, and the equipment list in your POH to see if the TC is an R-item.

BTW, the inoperative equipment routine is one of the things I go through with trainees on flight reviews. Most folks don't seem to have a good understanding of the process and how to complete it for their airplane.
 
Ron Levy said:
You might also want to review 91.213(d) for the procedure in this case, and the equipment list in your POH to see if the TC is an R-item.

BTW, the inoperative equipment routine is one of the things I go through with trainees on flight reviews. Most folks don't seem to have a good understanding of the process and how to complete it for their airplane.
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Good point.

Inop equipment would be for items in the aircraft that are inop and must be placarded - in this case I'm looking at flying the aircraft with the instrument removed.
 
airguy said:
Good point.

Inop equipment would be for items in the aircraft that are inop and must be placarded - in this case I'm looking at flying the aircraft with the instrument removed.
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Well, you'll still need something in the empty space showing that it was removed temporarily, a log entry for the removal, and the appropriate correction to the W&B (your equipment list has the weight and arm of the TC).
 
This is interesting. My ball moved on the TC one day but the airplane stayed the same even during turns. I told the mechanic and it was declared inop (but not replaced for a few weeks when they were ordering the part). I was with a CFI at the time, but neither one of us put a sticky note on the plane. I don't remember if I flew it after that day, but I am pretty sure no sticker was ever in place.

Question: should I have stuck a sticker on right away? Or after the flight? Or only when I personally flew again?
 
I had this exact thing happen to me when I was a student. The TC went inop when we were doing the preflight.
After discussions with the head A&P, CFI and myself and some looking in the FAR's (which the CFI made me do). It was determined that it wasn't on the MEL and could be marked "inop" and the appropriate log book entry made.
It was repaired the next day.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This is interesting. My ball moved on the TC one day but the airplane stayed the same even during turns. I told the mechanic and it was declared inop (but not replaced for a few weeks when they were ordering the part). I was with a CFI at the time, but neither one of us put a sticky note on the plane. I don't remember if I flew it after that day, but I am pretty sure no sticker was ever in place.

Question: should I have stuck a sticker on right away? Or after the flight? Or only when I personally flew again?
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91.213 should have been complied with before the next flight.

That said, unless Geordie LaForge was creating a static warp field next to your plane so as to change the laws of physics locally, it's hard to imagine the ball moving from side to side without the airplane moving the same way.
 
Ron Levy said:
That said, unless Geordie LaForge was creating a static warp field next to your plane so as to change the laws of physics locally, it's hard to imagine the ball moving from side to side without the airplane moving the same way.
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Maybe she meant that the miniature airplane in the TC stopped moving in response to turns. :dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
91.213 should have been complied with before the next flight.

That said, unless Geordie LaForge was creating a static warp field next to your plane so as to change the laws of physics locally, it's hard to imagine the ball moving from side to side without the airplane moving the same way.
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I meant the miniature airplane inside the TC. In other words "half" the instrument was working, but not sure how the ball could "fail" anyhow.
 
Well, as it turns out the need for me to have the airplane during the time it is without a valid TC just evaporated this afternoon, so the question is now academic - but it's a good discussion nonetheless.
 
airguy said:
Well, as it turns out the need for me to have the airplane during the time it is without a valid TC just evaporated this afternoon, so the question is now academic - but it's a good discussion nonetheless.
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Always good to ask questions, the main reason I joined POA when I was a student!
 
TOMATO FLAAMES dude
 
Ron Levy said:
If your tomatoes are flaming you left them on the grill too long. Other than that, don't try to memorize that which you can look up any time you need it.
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I was told for the exam I'd need to know it from memory
 
gcd89 said:
I was told for the exam I'd need to know it from memory
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Either you were told wrong, or your examiner needs retraining. I can't think of any situation in which you would need to know those items but would not have the time to look them up, and practical tests are supposed to be situationally based.

And please -- let's not have the "you're stranded in the middle of Alaska outside cell phone range with no internet and a polar bear ate your FAR/AIM book" scenario.
 
Ron Levy said:
If your tomatoes are flaming you left them on the grill too long. Other than that, don't try to memorize that which you can look up any time you need it.
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Hear hear. I hate acronyms.

BTW, my Tiger spent 2 weeks on the ground waiting for a new tachometer... the T in Tomato Flibbergibbits. You recall mentioning that my tach was reading a little fast Ron? My last leg home from OSH, it starting to read 3300 RPM while the JPI said 2600....
 
Ron Levy said:
And please -- let's not have the "you're stranded in the middle of Alaska outside cell phone range with no internet and a polar bear ate your FAR/AIM book" scenario.
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That's the dude with 400 hours who flies approaches who has no pilot's certificate in the other thread. ;)
 
slacktide said:
Hear hear. I hate acronyms.

BTW, my Tiger spent 2 weeks on the ground waiting for a new tachometer... the T in Tomato Flibbergibbits. You recall mentioning that my tach was reading a little fast Ron? My last leg home from OSH, it starting to read 3300 RPM while the JPI said 2600....
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You need to get an electronic tach like my Tiger has. :D
 
Anthony said:
You need to get an electronic tach like my Tiger has. :D
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I already have an electronic tach. It's built into my JPI. However it's not a certified replacement. So I keep the mechanical one to fulfill the legal requirement...
 
Anthony said:
You need to get an electronic tach like my Tiger has. :D
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That's fine and dandy until you are looking for an analog tac and can't find it, or it takes a few seconds to register what you are looking at ......

Ahem Ahem ......... yes I'm talking about me and that electronic tac in your Tiger.....
 
cavmedic said:
That's fine and dandy until you are looking for an analog tac and can't find it, or it takes a few seconds to register what you are looking at .....
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...or your electronic tach has an analog presentation as well as digital.
index.2

...like mine.:)
 
Ron Levy said:
And please -- let's not have the "you're stranded in the middle of Alaska outside cell phone range with no internet and a polar bear ate your FAR/AIM book" scenario.
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in that case i'm not going to care what instruments are or are not working because as soon as the polar bear is done with the FAR/AIM he is coming after me.
 
tonycondon said:
in that case i'm not going to care what instruments are or are not working because as soon as the polar bear is done with the FAR/AIM he is coming after me.
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bingo, I'm going flying NOW regardless of the weather, the condition of the plane and what the FAA might have to say about it:rofl:
 
gcd89 said:
I was told for the exam I'd need to know it from memory
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Not with any DPE that I've ever known. My last DPE loved the answer, "I don't know off the top of my head, but I know where to find the answer. Would you like me to?".

He made me do it once (checking to see if I was bluffing). After that, every time I used that answer he told me not to bother.
 
Skylane81E said:
bingo, I'm going flying NOW regardless of the weather, the condition of the plane and what the FAA might have to say about it:rofl:
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Might be one of the only times you declare an emergency even before turning the key! :D
 
Sorry to bring up a thread that is clearly dead, but I didn't want to make a new one for my question. I turned on the master the other day and couldn't hear the gyro. I discover that the turn coordinator is not functioning but my CFI says for day VFR i will be good. After looking it up though, somewhere it says it has to be placarded "inoperative" for it to be legal. My question is this; how can you placard the TC if the ball would then be hidden as well?
 
david0tey said:
Sorry to bring up a thread that is clearly dead, but I didn't want to make a new one for my question. I turned on the master the other day and couldn't hear the gyro. I discover that the turn coordinator is not functioning but my CFI says for day VFR i will be good. After looking it up though, somewhere it says it has to be placarded "inoperative" for it to be legal. My question is this; how can you placard the TC if the ball would then be hidden as well?
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You take a yellow sticky, cut it so it will only cover the airplane symbol and not the ball, write "Turn Rate INOP" on it, and stick it over the little airplane symbol.

And while you're at it, have your instructor go through 91.213(d) with you so you understand why this is OK, and what to do if down the road you face another inoperative instrument/equipment problem without your instructor around to help.
 
Sometimes a turn coordinator can be lazy to start, especially on a cold morning.

Start your engine and taxi out. It will probably be running at the runup area.
 
david0tey said:
Sorry to bring up a thread that is clearly dead, but I didn't want to make a new one for my question. I turned on the master the other day and couldn't hear the gyro. I discover that the turn coordinator is not functioning but my CFI says for day VFR i will be good. After looking it up though, somewhere it says it has to be placarded "inoperative" for it to be legal. My question is this; how can you placard the TC if the ball would then be hidden as well?
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Good for you to catch it.

As mentioned they can be cranky. Its easy to test a TC on the ground. Turn left and right while taxiing. The little airplane should bank left and right with your turns.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Question: should I have stuck a sticker on right away? Or after the flight? Or only when I personally flew again?
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Not having a yellow sticky note with the word "inop" stuck over an instrument that you never look at anyhow is the number one cause of aviation accidents.
 
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