Data tag Dilemma

[poadeleted20]

Repair documentation and original engine documentation. This isn't tough really.

If it were that easy, Tom would already have done it. Problem is, he needs a new C-145/O-300 data tag with the original serial number, and the procedure for that (see the AC's I mentioned above) is pretty much impossible at this point since after the tag swap, the FAA considers this engine to be an undocumented/uncertified part.

 

[Henning]

If the case was replaced with proper documentation, the original data tag would have been moved to the new case and the C-125 data tag destroyed with proper procedure and the documentation would show that. Since the C-125 data tag remains on the case and the original C-145 (or O-300) data tag is gone, then the documentation cannot possibly be proper because either it doesn't show the tag swap which actually happened or it does show a tag swap that didn't happen.

It shows a case swap, that's all that's needed.

 

[poadeleted20]

It shows a case swap, that's all that's needed.

Did you read those AC's? I guess not.

 

[Henning]

If it were that easy, Tom would already have done it. Problem is, he needs a new C-145/O-300 data tag with the original serial number, and the procedure for that (see the AC's I mentioned above) is pretty much impossible at this point since after the tag swap, the FAA considers this engine to be an undocumented/uncertified part.

Not from what Tom said after he talked to his PMI. I'm really glad you don't work for the FAA. Every inspector I have ever met has been quite realistic about things and found a way to make things happen with minimum disruption. We aren't talking counterfeit engines on airliners here with public interest involved, we're talking about straightening out a minor, meaningless snafu that some mechanic forgot decades ago.

 

[Silvaire]

The C-125 tag should never have been on that engine but that's neither here nor there, water under the bridge, simple mistake with a simple answer. Don't get all wrapped up in the AC's they are guidance, we still have working minds and common sense. There is nothing wrong with that engine.

 

[Tom-D]

If it were that easy, Tom would already have done it.

Thanks for noting that.

Problem is, he needs a new C-145/O-300 data tag with the original serial number, and the procedure for that (see the AC's I mentioned above) is pretty much impossible at this point since after the tag swap, the FAA considers this engine to be an undocumented/uncertified part.

Not really, the FAA considers this a Continental C-125, no matter what has been done to it.

the problem is, it is in a C-170, that is now considered un-airworthy for having the wrong engine installed.

The FAA does not know the engine has been altered. No paper work no alteration. They would have no reason to look, no accident, no paper, the FAA is but uninformed.

After a plan formed by me and my PMI, the owner will request a letter of authorization from the FAA to replace a missing data tag, for the original C-145/0-300-A that was delivered in the 170 from the factory. We know that data tag was destroyed.

But next question.
All maintenance records from 1960 to date were recorded on the C-125 S/N, now we will have a data tag showing a new/old S/N how do you cope with that?

 

[Henning]

Not really, the FAA considers this a Continental C-125, no matter what has been done to it.

the problem is, it is in a C-170, that is now considered un-airworthy for having the wrong engine installed.

The FAA does not know the engine has been altered. No paper work no alteration. They would have no reason to look, no accident, no paper, the FAA is but uninformed.

After a plan formed by me and my PMI, the owner will request a letter of authorization from the FAA to replace a missing data tag, for the original C-145/0-300-A that was delivered in the 170 from the factory. We know that data tag was destroyed.

But next question.
All maintenance records from 1960 to date were recorded on the C-125 S/N, now we will have a data tag showing a new/old S/N how do you cope with that?

Notation in the log explaining the issue?

 

[poadeleted20]

Not from what Tom said after he talked to his PMI.

Oh? How about the part where TCM said they won't provide a new one without the old one in return? And, as I said, the s/n's don't match the documentation. This isn't going to be as easy as you think. There's a lot which has to be done to prove this is really the C-145 with the old C-145 s/n rather than a buggered up C-125 with (as Tom noted) the C-125 s/n that's on both the data plate and the documentation.

And TCM isn't going to issue that new data plate with the original s/n unless they are pretty darn sure they're not going to have another engine with that original s/n on its data plate show up somewhere down the road (which is why they want the old one back).

Notation in the log explaining the issue?

You could try some sort of affidavit that the swap was made, but how are you going to get someone to sign a statement about something that happened 55 years ago? Or even find the person who did it so s/he can sign that statement today?

All that aside, whoever did the pre-purchase inspection for the current owner really screwed up. Y'all remember this one next time you're looking at a plane you want to buy -- check all the data plates and s/n's and make sure they match up with the TCDS and the aircraft's maintenance records.

 

[Silvaire]

Oh? How about the part where TCM said they won't provide a new one without the old one in return? ...

How about the fact that they never said that? What they sid was they wouldn't issue an O-300 tag with a C-125 serial number which, gosh, seems to make sense.

As for all the hullabaloo about previous log entries and such how about just get the proper data tag, install it then make a simple log entry telling the TRUTH about what happened?

Would that be so tough?

 

[Henning]

How about the fact that they never said that? What they sid was they wouldn't issue an O-300 tag with a C-125 serial number which, gosh, seems to make sense.

As for all the hullabaloo about previous log entries and such how about just get the proper data tag, install it then make a simple log entry telling the TRUTH about what happened?

Would that be so tough?

No no,,you need to retain an aviation attorney for all this.

 

[poadeleted20]

How about the fact that they never said that?

Tom said they did.

"...the problem with that is, TCM wants the old data tag that they are replacing."

As for all the hullabaloo about previous log entries and such how about just get the proper data tag, install it then make a simple log entry telling the TRUTH about what happened?

If TCM won't provide that data tag, where will you get it?

Would that be so tough?

Yes, it would, if TCM won't provide the data tag.

 

[Silvaire]

Not really, the FAA considers this a Continental C-125, no matter what has been done to it.

The FAA mistakenly considers it a C-125 because it has the wrong tag on it. Correct that mistake and they will recognize it as a C-145. It's like if you put a salvaged tailcone on a 150. Does the aircraft then become the serial number of the wrecked plane? No, it remains the same aircraft with the same serial number. Just because the data tag happens to be mounted on the case doesn't mean anything. If it were a Lycoming it would have been the oil pan.

 

[Silvaire]

...Yes, it would, if TCM won't provide the data tag.

They will.

 

[Tom-D]

and the documentation.

What documentation are you talking about??

And TCM isn't going to issue that new data plate with the original s/n unless they are pretty darn sure they're not going to have another engine with that original s/n on its data plate show up somewhere down the road (which is why they want the old one back).

They will do what the FAA authorizes them to do. They will replace a missing data tag.


You could try some sort of affidavit that the swap was made, but how are you going to get someone to sign a statement about something that happened 55 years ago? Or even find the person who did it so s/he can sign that statement today?

There is no need for any Affidavit, Any A&P or IA can return this to service as a 145. just from the 8030 tags from the last ovhl.


All that aside, whoever did the pre-purchase inspection for the current owner really screwed up. Y'all remember this one next time you're looking at a plane you want to buy -- check all the data plates and s/n's and make sure they match up with the TCDS and the aircraft's maintenance records.

The owner's family has owned the 170 for ever. They have the records, and know who made this mistake. Actually this was a matter of routine in 1960, just change the log to read the new serial. only this time the model was wrong too. With these old data tags there isn't much on them except the SN. he probably didn't know it was a 125 case when he replaced it.

 

[Tom-D]

The FAA mistakenly considers it a C-125 because it has the wrong tag on it.

The FAA doesn't know this engine has the wrong tag, they only know what TCM has told them, It's a C-125 as far as they know.


Correct that mistake and they will recognize it as a C-145.

When the original C-145 S/N is requested to be replaced we will have done just that.

 

[Tom-D]

It's like if you put a salvaged tailcone on a 150. Does the aircraft then become the serial number of the wrecked plane? No, it remains the same aircraft with the same serial number. Just because the data tag happens to be mounted on the case doesn't mean anything. If it were a Lycoming it would have been the oil pan.

What if. you bought a used fuselage and replaced the entire assembly? what would you save and what would you throw away. Could you keep the new N number that went with the new Fuselage?

Would you swap the data tag and the S/N tag, and N number to match the old records for the rest of the aircraft?

 

[poadeleted20]

The FAA mistakenly considers it a C-125 because it has the wrong tag on it. Correct that mistake and they will recognize it as a C-145. It's like if you put a salvaged tailcone on a 150. Does the aircraft then become the serial number of the wrecked plane? No, it remains the same aircraft with the same serial number. Just because the data tag happens to be mounted on the case doesn't mean anything. If it were a Lycoming it would have been the oil pan.

How are you going to show that this really is a C-145 with a C-145 s/n when the data plate on it and all the maintenance records back to 1960 say it's a C-125 with a C-125 s/n?

 

[JHW]

What if. you bought a used fuselage and replaced the entire assembly? what would you save and what would you throw away. Could you keep the new N number that went with the new Fuselage?

Would you swap the data tag and the S/N tag, and N number to match the old records for the rest of the aircraft?

My pawnee has complete logs and records since day one. And at one point the whole airplane fit nicely folded between the pages of one of the logs. Those complete logs everyone talks about, sure do represent resale value

 

[Henning]

My pawnee has complete logs and records since day one. And at one point the whole airplane fit nicely folded between the pages of one of the logs. Those complete logs everyone talks about, sure do represent resale value

In a way yes, since without the complete logs, the problem in this thread would require a new engine to solve. With all the logs and documentation present, this will be handled simply regardless Ron's thoughts.

 

[Tom-D]

How are you going to show that this really is a C-145 with a C-145 s/n when the data plate on it and all the maintenance records back to 1960 say it's a C-125 with a C-125 s/n?

Very easy, all the part numbers used during the last overhaul are C-145 part numbers. The only difference between the 125 and the 145 is the bore and stroke. In this case the crank and cylinders are 145 part numbers. which were inspected and certified by Aircraft Specialities of Tulsa OK.
In this case the local A&P-IA can verify. ( He did the ovhl )

 

[Silvaire]

How are you going to show that this really is a C-145 with a C-145 s/n when the data plate on it and all the maintenance records back to 1960 say it's a C-125 with a C-125 s/n?

Because it's the original engine and they have all of the logs including when the case was replaced. Simply find a reasonable person to talk with instead of someone like you.

 

[Tom-D]

In a way yes, since without the complete logs, the problem in this thread would require a new engine to solve. With all the logs and documentation present, this will be handled simply regardless Ron's thoughts.

Well, not so quick. this engine was mis-identified way back in 1960, and has been maintained as a 125 for 55 years.

There will be an entry in the records for this engine that must explain why the data tag changed. This entry can make or break the value of this 170.

One of the first questions my PMI asked is there any ADs that effect one engine that does not effect the other. That set me back a bit, I didn't know with out looking it up.

 

[Tom-D]

Because it's the original engine and they have all of the logs including when the case was replaced. Simply find a reasonable person to talk with instead of someone like you.

It is fortunate that in this case we were not dealing with a bunch of different owners, lost records, and the confusion of not knowing what was in the engine.
As Ron has pointed out, this could have been a real mess. And that is what I thought I was dealing with when I first started this thread.

In this case I believe the owner dodged the bullet by simply requesting the FAA to authorize the replacement of a missing data tag. Our only worry now is if TCM pitches a fit about not getting the old tag back.

we will see what happens.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, not so quick. this engine was mis-identified way back in 1960, and has been maintained as a 125 for 55 years.

Exactly. So how do you know every non-common part in it is a C-145 part? That means 55 years of logs to go through.

There will be an entry in the records for this engine that must explain why the data tag changed. This entry can make or break the value of this 170.

There "will be", or there is such an entry? As with the AD's, there's a ton of back paper to go through to establish the chain of events and prove this is the same engine that left the factory as a C-145-2 with the original s/n and is currently in conformity with the C-145 type certificate and all AD's issued against that engine model for the last 55 years. I'll be interested to see if your PMI can get the letter you want without a lot of proof that this really is that same engine and its conformity. And just because the FAA authorizes TCM to issue the data plate doesn't mean TCM is willing to accept the liability for doing that -- I can see their lawyers being reluctant to do that without substantial proof of the engine's true identity.

The only good news is that you have all those maintenance records back to when the engine left the factory, in which case you may well get what you want once you put together a thoroughly documented history on the engine so you have a way to show that it currently conforms.

 

[Silvaire]

...As with the AD's, there's a ton of back paper to go through to establish the chain of events and prove this is the same engine that left the factory as a C-145-2 with the original s/n and is currently in conformity with the C-145 type certificate and all AD's issued against that engine model for the last 55 years....

This is true of every engine out there that has ever been taken apart and overhauled. Stop thinking of it as a criminal investigation and start thinking of it as just replacing a lost tag. Why do you have to make such a big deal out of everything?

 

[Henning]

This is true of every engine out there that has ever been taken apart and overhauled. Stop thinking of it as a criminal investigation and start thinking of it as just replacing a lost tag. Why do you have to make such a big deal out of everything?

Too much time as an officer in the military makes you think inefficiently.

 

[Tom-D]

Exactly. So how do you know every non-common part in it is a C-145 part? That means 55 years of logs to go through.

No Ron,, 500 hours since major overhaul, remember TCM overhaul requires all S/Bs be complied with. And tested IAW the Overhaul manual. So, the owner is virtually home free. His IA did the Overhaul, and will have no problem verifying its compliance to its type certificate.


There "will be", or there is such an entry?

There will be.


As with the AD's, there's a ton of back paper to go through to establish the chain of events and prove this is the same engine that left the factory as a C-145-2 with the original s/n and is currently in conformity with the C-145 type certificate and all AD's issued against that engine model for the last 55 years. I'll be interested to see if your PMI can get the letter you want without a lot of proof that this really is that same engine and its conformity. And just because the FAA authorizes TCM to issue the data plate doesn't mean TCM is willing to accept the liability for doing that -- I can see their lawyers being reluctant to do that without substantial proof of the engine's true identity.

The only good news is that you have all those maintenance records back to when the engine left the factory, in which case you may well get what you want once you put together a thoroughly documented history on the engine so you have a way to show that it currently conforms.

There is no requirement to document any thing. When TCM issues the new data tag, all that will be necessary will be to remove the 125 data tag, install the 145 data tag, and make the log entry.
If you still believe all that you say is required, show the requirement by FAR.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]