denverpilot
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We pilots just practice malice upon ourselves.
The graph never claimed to be a comparison of reasons for danger.
The statement was that the jobs were “dangerous” not who or what created the danger.
Dangerous jobs
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We pilots just practice malice upon ourselves.
The graph never claimed to be a comparison of reasons for danger.
The statement was that the jobs were “dangerous” not who or what created the danger.
denverpilot
Tied Down
That’s actually interesting that you think that, since they still don’t even come close to the others in real numbers per 100,000.
There’s a lot of teachers in the country.
One of yours may have forgot to teach how ratios work, though. Maybe. Or you choose not to apply what they taught.
denverpilot
Tied Down
He can nut up all he likes. Those other statements were quite accurate. LE doesn’t attract the best and brightest, it doesn’t pay enough.
He conveniently leaves out that I worked as a Sheriff’s dispatcher and also leaves out that I think it’s about a $150,000 a year job, up there with low Doctor pay, and should require at least four years of specific training as well as possibly a specific law subset, and the entire “industry” should move toward a personal responsibility and personal professional liability model.
There’s no honor in hiding behind special laws limiting the personal liability for professional behavior unbecoming of an officer, like the dodo who hit the bicyclist. Make it more like a Doc, Profesional license to practice law enforcement and suspend it during investigations to limit the harm the Doc/Officer can do to patients/Citizens.
It’s an important job that requires critical thinking skills. A high school diploma and a few weeks at an Academy and $30,000 a year with special dispensation to not have any of the same professional liability that anyone else has, makes it go downhill into Bubba land very quickly in some departments. In the good departments it still makes it impossible to weed out a few Bubbas who shouldn’t be carrying a mop, let alone a gun.
Tantalum
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tawood
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I would disagree that any of it is true. I’m not saying you can’t find the exception to the rule, that would prove any of his statements. But you can do that in any field…
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Mantis Toboggan, MD
Dude's got a longer agenda than a government symposium.
Nauga,
with a *plonk*
Nauga,
with a *plonk*
catmandu
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REALLY should binge some Archer when M’lady is away working, these bits and pieces always make me happy.
Clip4
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tawood
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So you are critical of officers for working under liability rules that they didn’t set up? Makes sense.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
I’m critical of them calling it honorable, yes. Honorable is operating under the same laws and rules that “equal” served Citizens operate under, unless those Citizens approve of any rule changes.
Starting with one that’s not a law at all. Dump the “administrative leave” vacations.
But I recognize that’s hard when the politicians underpay officers on purpose, and recruit people with nothing more than a high school education in some jurisdictions.
I know that’s not the standard everywhere, but there’s way too many places where that’s still true, and wholly inappropriate for someone carrying a deadly weapon and making decisions that can ruin lives even if they don’t use the weapon.
We have the largest number of people incarcerated per capita of any “civilized” nation and it’s a private money-maker. That’s absolutely broken, considering I don’t believe the average American is generally more inclined to be a criminal than any other first-world country.
Status quo is not a solution. The entire business of law enforcement needs to break out of stereotypes and eschew a whole bunch of inappropriate moral things.
Like asset forfeiture. That’s just theft. Sell the stuff off to anyone who bids on it. Don’t repaint the drug dealer’s Tesla into a cop car. What crazy society allows that?
When you see videos that prove those same uneducated officers have NO idea what the laws are that they’re operating under, or care, that’s a serious problem for our society that needs to be remedied.
Like I’ve said, I’m all for paying better and requiring higher education standards but I know none of the powers that be are interested. All I can do is add my voice to what I expect a professional with a gun should be, and see if anybody starts to agree.
And you probably already know I’m not a big fan of government debt, so yeah... I’m saying I’d vote to pay taxes for a highly educated, personally responsible, law enforcement force. Way too much amateur BS going on in the ranks.
Not all, not even a majority, but the dumbbells need to be driven out, economically and socially.
The DA’s certainly aren’t doing it, and due to political party affiliations, they’re often not worried their constituents will vote them out for it, at all. So that check and balance isn’t working. Rabid partisans killed that.
They have a kiddie porn Sheriff’s deputy no jail time and community service (again) just south of here last week. Broken record. Time to try something significantly different.
Not going to happen but that’s where it should go, if you ask me. A highly respected, highly trained, highly paid, personally liable for their actions, law enforcement force.
The current model worked when people trusted city hall politicians. Nobody with any brainpower does any more. The bosses of the LEOs are mostly partisan cultists.
The other fix for that is term limits. I liked our Sheriff here quite a bit but smarter heads prevailed and voted down the special measure to extend his term beyond the limit. Probably for the best. Less chance of corruption.
Municipal PD leaders should also be voted upon, not political appointees. Direct ousting by Citizens if they don’t perform. No habit to vote for a party boss above them to change them.
There ya go. My plan. It won’t happen but it’s a damn sight better than having Dudley Dummy in a uniform telling a lawyer he pulled over, that he can do illegal things. Or protecting Dudley with the thin blue line. Dudley needs to go be a mall cop.
Skyrys62
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Meet the Fokkers
Too much sensitivity in this thread.
Somebody may stroke out. No wonder Pilots are number 3.
Somebody may stroke out. No wonder Pilots are number 3.
Fed stats
In the Air Force, it was an enlisted job, so the officers wouldn't have to do a pre-flight. Sort of like a dinosaur, but less useful.
What’s a Flight engineer?
In the Air Force, it was an enlisted job, so the officers wouldn't have to do a pre-flight. Sort of like a dinosaur, but less useful.
I was working an IT job associated with LE a few years back - a young officer had been through the academy, done the local training, been evaluated, etc. He said it was all good, he was sailing along, no worries.
Then he told me the first time on his own, an hour into his shift, he rolled up on a gruesome accident, multiple traumatic injuries, massive blood loss, etc. . .the first thing that he thought was "I gotta call somebody!"
Then he said it hit him, the whole weight of the job - "I'm the somebody that gets called!". Then he waded in, did what he could do, until EMTs arrived.
Every time I see a cop act a bit of an ass, or acrry on less than professional, I remember that - just regular people doing a job; always gonna be a 10%, and the rest doing the best they can. And maybe I'm seeing him on his worst day. . .
Then he told me the first time on his own, an hour into his shift, he rolled up on a gruesome accident, multiple traumatic injuries, massive blood loss, etc. . .the first thing that he thought was "I gotta call somebody!"
Then he said it hit him, the whole weight of the job - "I'm the somebody that gets called!". Then he waded in, did what he could do, until EMTs arrived.
Every time I see a cop act a bit of an ass, or acrry on less than professional, I remember that - just regular people doing a job; always gonna be a 10%, and the rest doing the best they can. And maybe I'm seeing him on his worst day. . .
tawood
En-Route
The cop making up the law to the attorney makes the news because it’s a rare event...but ask any “joe citizen”,and they’re going to tell you it happens all the time, and it even happened to them. They will then tell you they were pulled over for nothing, or revenue, etc and tell you the cop told them this or that...funny thing is it rarely is the real story. Twice in my life I’d had people tell me their “******* cop” story when they didn’t even realize that I WAS THE COP THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT! And low and behold, their “facts” changed substantially from how I remembered them.
It’s easy to SAY the cops get off easy for committing crimes, or that they are stupid. It’s easy to even find a few cases to back up your claims. It’s even easier to find a large number of people that agree with it. Doesn’t make it true, other than the “perception is reality” concept.
denverpilot
Tied Down
$3.3M spent on on one violent cop and settling cases in DPD is “rare” but also completely unacceptable and it demands some sort of change.
Having the served pay for the bad behavior is the biggest problem here. I agree it’s rare. Relative to how many good experiences people have with medical professionals, the bad ones are “rare” there, too. But the “rare” ones are shoved out economically fairly quickly.
That dummy wouldn’t be a cop anymore if he’d wiped out his personal liability insurance the first time and he became uninsurable as a professional. If he’d have been dumb enough to stay after the first one, he’d be a mall cop after event number two, because he’d be bankrupt and off the job.
It needs an economic solution that ties being dumb and dangerous to the public, directly to the officer’s wallet. And commensurate pay for that responsibility level.
Just like any other professional position where lives are on the line... I can sue a Doctor, I can sue a Lawyer, I can sue a contractor when my house falls on me, I can even fire an employee and sue them for damages for gross negligence.
I can’t sue a cop. All I can sue is the government that I pay for and pay for their defense too. That’s retarded economics.
Tarheelpilot
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It used to be that way. An exception. If you think its the exception today you live under a rock. It’s by no means the majority but not the exception, unfortunately.
tawood
En-Route
Again, I would say that is the perception...which yes, that is a problem that it is the perception.
Look at the case Denver cited above, about a cop incorrectly advising a lawyer about the law...I'd be willing to bet that didn't occur in the jurisdiction that Denver lives in / works in...yet he heard about it. In fact, there's a good chance it didn't even happen in the state he lives in, yet he heard about it. About a million officers in the country, yet I hear crap every time one of them screws up.
I've experienced the bias first hand. I was OIC of an officer-involved shooting. It was front page headlines for a month here...they interviewed the people who marched against our department, who, before the case was investigated, without any facts of the case, stated the officer used excessive force. When the officer was cleared, it didn't even make page 3 of the local rag.
Tarheelpilot
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Get over it dude. Every time a pilot shows up to work drunk I hear about that too. Doesn’t make jokes about drunk pilots off limits, to me they are still funny.
As far as the frequency of these law enforcement issues, they occur somewhere in our country on a weekly basis. That’s way to often.
Our per capita rate of incarceration is terribly high for an “enlightened” first world nation and our recidivism rates are horrible. Reform is needed.
Then the war on drugs. Give me a break. Prohibition does not, nor will it ever work. Yet we still suffer through the terrible social and economic impacts of a decision that was purely political and continues to be political in nature.
I’ll also add this just for consideration. I am second generation LEO. I decided to pursue Aviation as a career so my tenure in service was brief, only 3 years. My dad retired after 34 on patrol working as a game warden. That’s 37 years between us. There was one officer killed in the line of duty known to us during that 37 years. I have been working as a pilot for 19 years. Four friends and ~8 more that were professional associates have gone west on the job. I know it’s a single data point and anecdotal in nature but I can tell you flying is in fact a dangerous business. Whether or not it’s more or less dangerous than law enforcement... I don’t really care. I’m just tired of being invited to memorial services.
paflyer
Final Approach
Unfortunately, his "worst day" can very quickly become your worst day, or maybe last day. And then Bubba gets a paid vacation while the bosses scramble (if there's video/credible eyewitnesses) to come up with a copsplanation as to how he was following "proper policy."
paflyer
Final Approach
Cops make up laws all the time, just check out any number of YouTube videos, which by pure numbers is, ahem, "just the tip."
A favorite genre is how cops claim that you are "obstructing" by refusing to incriminate, er, "answer questions", yourself.
FormerHangie
En-Route
So, what kind of professional flying is sufficiently dangerous to get pilot on this list? Considering that flying for a major airline is about as dangerous as being an accountant and there are a lot of them. Who is out there crashing it up so much as to skew the ratio?
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tawood
En-Route
This is exactly what I'm talking about...just because you don't like the law, doesn't mean we don't enforce it. Lying to me, during an investigation, is a crime. People will lie, then say later they didn't have to answer. They're right, they didn't have to answer. But the problem for them is, they lie instead. Sorry, nope.
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Tarheelpilot
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Airlines are just one job out of hundreds in the field.
tawood
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Get over it? I think you are reading too much emotion into my responses...I'm only mildly interested in what you think in the first place...maybe that's part of "my problem".
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tawood
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Another thing I notice repeatedly, so I remind people repeatedly: police don't write the laws. Most times (not always, sometimes discretion comes into play), police don't get to decide which laws to enforce. Several posts above blame police for the laws that exist...
Tarheelpilot
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Sorry nope. He said refusing to answer. Not lying. You added that part yourself.
tawood
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Guess I haven't come across any of those videos where they are arrested for not answering...link to a few?
Of course, if you're driving, again that is a different story, as you DO have to ID yourself, etc.
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Tarheelpilot
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If you are referring to my statements about drug laws then I’ll engage. Sure cops didn’t write them but there’d sure are lots of them at high levels using political influence to keep it status quo.
Tarheelpilot
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I haven’t watched the videos either. Just pointing out you assumed lying when the post you quoted specifically didn’t refer to lying, only refusing to answer.
paflyer
Final Approach
Nope, cops are trained to coerce (i.e., lie) a response that is not in the (protected) best interest of the person of interest (i.e., presumed perp.)
You've never used the old "this will go easier on you if you cooperate" and " you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" bits to get subjects to willingly, or foolishly, give up their 4A and 5A rights?
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tawood
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Ok...not sure what that has to do with cops in general. Personally, I've never touched a joint, but think its way less damaging than alcohol...doesn't change how I enforce crimes involving marijuana or alcohol.
Tarheelpilot
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I don’t care what you think at all. I was just trying to educate you.
Edit to remove rudeness
Tarheelpilot
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I never touched a joint either. I agree about the alcohol.
How do you not see a connection?? Look beyond the door of your cruiser and pay attention to what is going on around you in the big picture. Law enforcement agencies and their leadership have an enormous amount of influence... unfortunately
Rushie
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I guess they're including crop dusters? And banner towers and so on. No way they're just talking about commercial airline.
tawood
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Funny, but this is a catch 22 to me. I want to do a good job, and I want to lock up bad guys for victims (by lock up, I mean see them punished for crimes they've committed). I see victims as my "customers". Denver said my job has no honor, but I disagree...the position is not guaranteed honor, but I believe that doing ANY job well has honor, and I try to do my job to my best ability. I use the tools the "system" allows me to use. Whether you like it or not, the supreme court has ruled that lying, by me, is allowed. Personally, I never lie to people DIRECTLY, but I will admit that almost ALWAYS I will infer things, to try to get a guilty response...that's my job, and I'm known for being good at it...I have the highest confession/case closure rate in my department.
I've never once said, "This will go easier on you if you cooperate"...that is a direct lie. I have said, "This case would be better if you told the truth"...which is the truth, my case would be better.
tawood
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I'm not saying there aren't forces at play, but its still the law. 1)Get it changed...or 2)just keep complaining that the people that enforce the law that they didn't write is the problem...see which gets you farther.
Rushie
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I saw one just the other day. A female attorney I think. I will try to find it. She was handcuffed and hauled off because she refused to talk to the cop. I'm not saying she was right or wrong just that I saw the video.
I don't think the average cop is corrupt. But I'm sure there are some who benefit financially from drug arrests, such as taking the "evidence" to resell. I've heard such rumors but can't point to a particular case. But I do know for a fact that seizure of assets occurs and this is before trial and conviction and I cannot square that with being Constitutional.
In general cops enforce the law and I love them for it, when they are trying to catch killers and rapists. But I have something of a problem when I see cops breaking down the door of some sorry drug addict whose only crime is possession. If he is a burglar that's different, but I don't see how creating a lifelong criminal record for the addict is helpful to them or to society. It's time we faced reality: this approach is a complete failure. It actually drives addicts to become burglars because of trouble getting a job when they get out of prison or because of background checks.
If I were a LEO I would have a moral dilemma and a real hard time with this. I would want to exercise something like juror nullification; refuse to enforce the law because I disagree with it, but I know cops don't have that option.
As for the lying, everyone lies. This is why lawyers tell you not to talk to cops. No one can retell the truth without some sort of inadvertent modification of some little detail because the human memory is not like a video recording. The human brain stores memories imperfectly. And then there is the imperfection of human language. Even if your intention is to tell the truth, it can often be twisted into something far different from what you meant. So criminals lie and cops lie, sometimes intentionally sometimes not.
paflyer
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Tarheelpilot
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My choice was to stop enforcing laws I had moral objections to and actively engage my representatives and other voters in discussions just like the one we are having right now to try and get more people to engage their representatives.
I’m not complaining. I’m having a conversation. If you perceive it as complaining you misunderstand my intentions.
paflyer
Final Approach
This is how they got Scooter Libby and Martha Stewart (and probably thousands of others whose names we'll never know) and it's how Mueller wants to get our President.
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