Dang it! Now I'm in deep like with a Skylane.

nddons

nddons

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
13,304
Location
Waukesha County, WI
Display Name
Stan
Home Airfield
KUES
I took a demo flight with the local Cessna salesman in a new 182 today. I didn't have a high expectation of purchasing one, but they offered, and I took the offer.

This plane feels like a real airplane! It feels huskier than the Skyhawk, and though the controls are heavier, I really liked that. We flew to 4,500 ft, did some standard rate turns, stalls, which were a non-event, etc., and then flew the ILS 10 with a circle to land into KUES using the integrated autopilot. I have been checked out in a G1000 Skyhawk, but haven't flown it very much since I decided to do my IR training in a steam gauge 172SP. The first touch and go was a little rough with the heavy nose, and I didn't help by not using enough rudder on the go. But the second one was a lot better, including my pattern. I was surprised to know that the pattern speeds were only about 5 kts faster than a Skyhawk. What a pleasant, capable aircraft. Especially with 3 adults and a lot of fuel.

Now what do I do? I can't justify buying one on my own, but I think that there is a market for a leaseback to the local flight school for a 182. Except for Kent's rental baby at KMSN, I'm not sure there is another 182 available to rent in southeast Wisconsin.

I'm going to get a financial model for a leaseback, run some numbers, and think about it. But if this is my first plane, it's going to be very hard to look at it as a business asset, and have other people flying it! I guess that would be a good problem to have.

I've seen the sticky on the sale/leaseback idea, but if anyone has any experience with that, good or bad, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Thanks.
Stan
 
I've liked every 182 I've been in. It's a sweet plane and the extra weight comes in handy.
 
Ask yourself just how closely the 182 fits your typical mission profile.

If I had the financial wherewithal to be able to buy a brand new $400K airplane like a 2008 Skylane, I'd probably have to choose a Cirrus instead :D
 
Neal Howard said:
Ask yourself just how closely the 182 fits your typical mission profile.

If I had the financial wherewithal to be able to buy a brand new $400K airplane like a 2008 Skylane, I'd probably have to choose a Cirrus instead :D
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:P

You're making Clyde roll over in his grave!
 
How about taking on a partner or two or three?

Even if I had the money for a new 182, I'd have a really hard time seeing it be turned into a used 182 at an accelerated rate on leaseback.

Plus, availability? Being scheduled by renters, down for 100 hour inspections, etc. It would really bite to be writing a multi kilobuck check to the bank every month and have to deal with that.

If the local flight school saw there was a market, why wouldn't they buy a new one on their own and put it on the flight line?

My limited experience with the 182 was really "wow", it's a big step up from a 172.


Trapper John
 
I have nothing but good things to say about my 182. I know it is only a 1959 model but I have had great luck with it. It was a airport queen and I brought it back to life in 1995. I actually bought it in 1992 and it took me three years to get it flying. So 16 years and 1300 hours later I love old 9054N. Four folks and enough fuel and you can still go flying. It has been all the airplane I have needed. Bob
 

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My '05 is great. I can get into very short strips (try that in a Cirrus) or cruise for hundreds of miles. High wing keeps things cooler inside. The G1000 with the GFC700 is a fantastic system. It's the only thing I regret about mine (05 still came with the KAP140, which is eminently adequate but lacks the total integration of the Garmin AP).

Go for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Actually, take a look at an '06, save the depreciation hit and still get all the goodies.
 
I LOVE my C182! The wife really loves it...especially the reclining seats. LOL

While I am a major lover of the C182, I too would suggest you make sure it fits YOUR mission.

A Cirrus is faster that is for sure. However I can generally haul more and land places most (not all mind you) Cirrus pilots would not even think about going into. Oh and as mentioned above, the high wing keeps things cooler in the summer. My one ride in a Cirrus (fun plane BTW) showed me how hot the bubble canopy can get in the SE in the summer!

Also the wings are in the RIGHT place on the C182! :D
 
I've always been very impressed with the 182. It doesn't seem like it's the best at anything...but it's really good at a lot of things.

It really sounds like you're talking yourself into this deal. From what I've heard about leasebacks, if you can't make it work if the leaseback doesn't pay the bills it's probably not a good idea. Think about the worst case scenario. For instance, you can't get affordable insurance, so the rental rate is high and nobody rents it. If you could afford that happening, then no worries.
 
I regard the 182 a the "universal airplane"; carries enough (including fuel) to be a legitimate traveling machine, fast enough to get you there even if you have some wind to contend with, rock-solid stable so excellent for instrument work, and soundly-constructed.

The Cirrus is a fine airplane in its own right, but I really don't consider the Cirri and the 182 as competition for each other. I doubt Cessna and Cirrus do, either.

As for doing a leaseback, be very certain you know what you are getting yourself into. Read Captain Jason's Leaseback Advice, which you can find fairly easily be a search... great stuff.

It was me, and I wanted a 182 on leaseback, I'd go for a frame with a year or two behind it, but there may be tax reasons, applicable to your particular situation, which militate otherwise.

---Edit: Here you go: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=210818&postcount=1
 
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I'll just chime in with a "me too!" We have two 182s on leaseback at my FBO (neither belong to us!), and they do get used. I think that 182's are about the best all-around airplane available for our flying, which includes things like 6Y9 and Gastons that aren't too conducive to Cirri. They have good useful load, are super comfortable, and can deal with relatively short, rough strips.
 
FlyNE said:
I've always been very impressed with the 182. It doesn't seem like it's the best at anything...but it's really good at a lot of things.

It really sounds like you're talking yourself into this deal. From what I've heard about leasebacks, if you can't make it work if the leaseback doesn't pay the bills it's probably not a good idea. Think about the worst case scenario. For instance, you can't get affordable insurance, so the rental rate is high and nobody rents it. If you could afford that happening, then no worries.
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Hmmm. Excellent point, Jason.
 
The 182 is an excellent machine. I love the roominess and how much you can carry. While the fuel requirements are higher than your typical low wing or high wing trainer type aircraft you make up for it with a lot more speed to get to where you are going. The aircraft is well known and supported making maintenance rather easy and less expensive to get parts.

My next airplane is very likely going to be a 182 of some sort. All I need is for the economy to get out of the pits so I can afford the new plane.
 
Stan:

You took the bait man...From the salesman's perspective, taking you flying in a '08 182 is like sending a puppy home with an 8 year old...you know... "to try out"...I'll venture to say that you lost sleep last night thinking about that aircraft...Trust me, I understand...

I have very limited flying experience but all of my time has been as an owner. I bought my '05 172SP with 9 hours in my logbook in December of 2006. The Van Bortel's sent a CFI to fly back to NC with me. I found the 172SP amazing to the point that I needed it to do "things". I sold it and took less than a 5K hickey after flying it right at 280 hours and purchased the '07 182T. That is a testament to Cessna's resale value and timing the year model change over to sell....

On the 182T, all I can say is WOW. Every time I fly this aircraft, I am amazed. I have done all of my instrument training in the aircraft and it truly excels. The WAAS GPS (it is my understanding that WAAS was not available on 2006 models except as an aftermarket upgrade.) and integrated AP is nirvana.

I have limited experience but I would seek out partners in a plane like this if I was in your position. With the down economy, I have gotten three offers to take on partners in the 182. I turned this down for various reason but it did make a lot of sense in the financial arena.

I even got a leaseback offer from the flight school on the field when I had the 172 that was absurd...I think I hurt the guys feelings when I laughed...out loud...This was obviously "his" offer but I just turned it down cold because I could not see my Skyhawk being treated the way students treat them...Shoot, I WAS a student...

The good news is that you are not going to have to upgrade the 182 for a long time. You buy the plane, put gas in it and fly it. Cessna's warranty is on some days, too good to be true. Both of the aircraft I have owned have been under warranty from the beginning but I have had only one nagging issue on the 172. It was solved after the Cessna field engineer came and got the plane and dug into it.

I'll be glad to share my buying experience by PM. It could very well save you quite a few dollars. Cessna is eager to sell aircraft. If the plane is normally aspirated, they are even more eager to sell it, as the turbos are selling at a much quicker clip than the N/A versions. The sales figures come from the Cessna field rep for the NC area...

All that said, I recommend partners...not a leaseback. Leasebacks end up with used aircraft that are ran at rental power and partners with an equal interest are likely to take the same care you do.

I wish you well in your situation...Been there...!!!!
 
Kelvin said:
Stan:

You took the bait man...From the salesman's perspective, taking you flying in a '08 182 is like sending a puppy home with an 8 year old...you know... "to try out"...I'll venture to say that you lost sleep last night thinking about that aircraft...Trust me, I understand...
Click to expand...

:rofl: You're right on. The bastards!

Good information. At this point I think I've abandoned the leaseback idea, based in large part on info from this post, and the sticky post on leasebacks. Now I'm looking at alternatives, i.e. an '06 or '07, partners, etc.

I asked the salesman whether there were any fractional arrangements in our area (which on my research I couldn't find any) and he said that he has never sold an aircraft for a fractional arrangement. He did say that he has sold 4 Skylanes (2 turbo, 2 not) since AirVenture. I suspect that in this economy that's pretty good, but I don't know for sure.

Where is Hope Mills? I earned my PPL at Monroe, NC (KEQY).
 
Stan,

Would you keep it at UES or elsewhere? What are you flying now?
 
nddons said:
:rofl: You're right on. The bastards!

Where is Hope Mills? I earned my PPL at Monroe, NC (KEQY).
Click to expand...

Hope Mills is SW of Fayetteville about 10 miles. Monroe is still on my "gotta land there" list.

If you get further on this deal...PM me before you start the pricing negotiations...
 
Here is an example of what you can do if you get that 182. This strip is at 5743' four of us and enough fuel to be real safe. U60 Big Creek, ID.

 
nddons said:
Now what do I do? I can't justify buying one on my own, but I think that there is a market for a leaseback to the local flight school for a 182. Except for Kent's rental baby at KMSN, I'm not sure there is another 182 available to rent in southeast Wisconsin.
Click to expand...

Ah, but N271G is not a rental. :no: In fact, I don't know of any rental 182's in the entire state. The ones that Grant and Leslie rent at Clow are probably the closest rental 182's to you!

I'd suggest, as others have, looking at a partnership as a better alternative than a leaseback.

The 182 is an awesome airplane. It'll haul a bunch of stuff (ours will take 747 pounds with full 6+ hour fuel, or 900 pounds and four hours of fuel). It'll happily land and take off from short unimproved strips. It'll climb and descend like crazy. The only thing it won't do is go faster than 140 knots. I plan 130 on ours, but I'll often get 133 KTAS.

In the last 5 weeks, I've put 70 hours on the airplane. She's been to OSH and held the tarp over my tent. She's taken me to the lowest (-218 MSL, L06, Furnace Creek, Death Valley, CA) and highest (9927 MSL, KLXV, Leadville, CO) public-use strips in the continental US. She's taken me to beautiful mountain airstrips, through picturesque valleys, forgiven me for flying her through some ice and landing on rough airstrips, gotten me from Denver to Madison in a day with enough spare time to stop and have dinner with friends, climbed to 17,500 MSL so I could be comfortably cool...

... And that's just in these last 5 weeks! In the 4 or so years I've been flying her, she's taken me to the east coast, the west coast, the gulf coast, and Gaston's. She's gotten me home from Houston, TX (900 nm) in two legs without giving me any aches and pains thanks to her big comfy cabin. She's landed on grass, dirt, gravel, and pavement in 25 states. She's slogged her way through clouds, fog, ice, snow, rain, and landed safely in winds 20G29 60 degrees off runway heading. Oh, and did I mention that she's gone 900 or so hours over TBO now too? Not to mention that she's given me more awesome memories than most people get in an entire lifetime.

As for the price - The 182 is comparable to the SR20. The SR20 is really only 10 knots or so faster. Sure, it'll burn less fuel. But even the SR22 won't get you in here:

DSCN3641.jpg


See any Cirri there? Nope. Plenty of 182's though...

Stan, you can't go wrong with a 182. Be it a fancy new one, or even a well-equipped old one (N271G is a 1971 182N, with new paint, semi-new interior, Garmin 430W and S-TEC 50) the airplane will take you anywhere with a smile. :yes:
 
Did I mention I get 150 KTAS in the 182 for rent at JYO? It's a 2007 model, I think, normally aspirated, but the aerodynamic cleanup they did with better wheel pants and some gap seals makes a difference.

The next airplane I buy (barring winning the lottery) will either be a 182 or an M20J, depending on if my flying is mostly business/solo travel (Mooney) or mostly family (182).

If I WIN the Lotto, I'm gonna get a PC-12, a cub, and a Cessna Amphib (182 or 206).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ah, but N271G is not a rental. :no: In fact, I don't know of any rental 182's in the entire state.

. . .

She's slogged her way through clouds, fog, ice, snow, rain, and landed safely in winds 20G29 60 degrees off runway heading.
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Mea culpa, Kent! :redface: I made an incorrect assumption.

Thanks for checking in on this thread, though the sell job wasn't necessary. I drive a Ford F-150 and an Expedition. I'm a truck kind of guy, 6'3", and I think the 182 would suit my mindset perfectly. I have 1 hour in an SR-22, and it's very cool, but I think for the utility AND the price, for my mission you can't beat the Skylane.

Interestingly, I flew to/from DBQ on Sunday in a 172SP, and as I was listening to Chicago Center and other approach controllers, I think every other plane was a Skylane! (Maybe I'm exagerating, but my ear was picking up every Skylane flying.)

Now to make something work in the old budget . . .
 
Stan: If you intend to keep the plane for awhile, the 182 is the way to go! The SR-22 seems to be more suited for those that don't keep 'em long :lightning:

Best,

Dave
 
St. Cloud aviation rents a 182RG.

Aside from that I am betting I can put a 180, 185, 182 together for you just the way you want for less than $100.00. I would think that an older 182 brought to new specs would be far better than a new 182. Just think of what you could do with $300,000.00.

Dan
 
Leasebacks don't work. If they did, the guy who owns the FBO or rental company would own the airplanes, the same way the guy at the rental store owns his concrete mixers, chain saws and ditch diggers.

The sales guys have all kind of reasons, but the bottom line is that it's a smoke-screen deal that most people don't figure out until it's too late. If you know how to analyze the spread sheet they give you, you can figure it out in about 15 minutes.

PM if you need help. I'm new to this forum, but have been doing this stuff for a living (on big airplanes) for many years and glad to help you unravel the mystery. It's not a money deal and no dog in the fight. I want GA to continue as a viable part of our society, and am happy to help anybody who is trying to figure out the realities of their personal airplane deals.

Wayne

nddons said:
I took a demo flight with the local Cessna salesman in a new 182 today. I didn't have a high expectation of purchasing one, but they offered, and I took the offer.

This plane feels like a real airplane! It feels huskier than the Skyhawk, and though the controls are heavier, I really liked that. We flew to 4,500 ft, did some standard rate turns, stalls, which were a non-event, etc., and then flew the ILS 10 with a circle to land into KUES using the integrated autopilot. I have been checked out in a G1000 Skyhawk, but haven't flown it very much since I decided to do my IR training in a steam gauge 172SP. The first touch and go was a little rough with the heavy nose, and I didn't help by not using enough rudder on the go. But the second one was a lot better, including my pattern. I was surprised to know that the pattern speeds were only about 5 kts faster than a Skyhawk. What a pleasant, capable aircraft. Especially with 3 adults and a lot of fuel.

Now what do I do? I can't justify buying one on my own, but I think that there is a market for a leaseback to the local flight school for a 182. Except for Kent's rental baby at KMSN, I'm not sure there is another 182 available to rent in southeast Wisconsin.

I'm going to get a financial model for a leaseback, run some numbers, and think about it. But if this is my first plane, it's going to be very hard to look at it as a business asset, and have other people flying it! I guess that would be a good problem to have.

I've seen the sticky on the sale/leaseback idea, but if anyone has any experience with that, good or bad, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Thanks.
Stan
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Leasebacks don't work. If they did, the guy who owns the FBO or rental company would own the airplanes, the same way the guy at the rental store owns his concrete mixers, chain saws and ditch diggers.

The sales guys have all kind of reasons, but the bottom line is that it's a smoke-screen deal that most people don't figure out until it's too late. If you know how to analyze the spread sheet they give you, you can figure it out in about 15 minutes.

PM if you need help. I'm new to this forum, but have been doing this stuff for a living (on big airplanes) for many years and glad to help you unravel the mystery. It's not a money deal and no dog in the fight. I want GA to continue as a viable part of our society, and am happy to help anybody who is trying to figure out the realities of their personal airplane deals.

Wayne
Click to expand...

Welcome to the boards, Wayne! I'm sure you'll find this a pretty friendly place.

Thanks for the advice!
 
TMetzinger said:
Did I mention I get 150 KTAS in the 182 for rent at JYO? It's a 2007 model, I think, normally aspirated, but the aerodynamic cleanup they did with better wheel pants and some gap seals makes a difference.
Click to expand...

Prolly a turbo..the NA 182 will not do 150 KTAS...unless you run it at rental power I suppose...OR if the gap seals make that much difference, I should install them...

flyingcheesehead said:
Really? What power setting? How much fuel burn?
I have some time in a 2006 G1000 182. At WOT/2300/12.9gph lean of peak I was getting exactly 140 KTAS.
Click to expand...

This is about right...I have seen 145 in my '07 182 a time or two...I don't plan those numbers for sure...
 
Like Kent, I plan for 130 KT. sometimes it beats it a little.
 
I agree that the 182 is about the most versatile airplane out there. While it doesn't do any one thing really well it does a lot things well enough.

IMHO I find that they typically don't do well as rental airplanes. Students typically don't want to fly them because they are to expensive and they need time more than they need speed or power. There would be some demand for High Performance training and some rental to pilots but this usually ends up being a pretty small amount of business. A leaseback can do well to company that uses the airplane for charter work or something besides rental. I have seen 182's do well in a club enviroment.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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