Dale Snodgrass crash in Idaho

sourdough44 said:
Yes, any ‘cargo shift’ would of went back firmly forward as the nose hit. There could still be witness marks or similar if it happened.

So now is it gonna be silence for 2+ years until a final report is issued? It seems often these investigations are very tight lipped.
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Pretty much. Sometimes they are tightly lipped because there are other sensitive things being investigated. Other times, particularly in GA accidents, it’s because after the initial fact finding, the case goes to the back burner while the NTSB works to finalize the next pressing case from 18 or so months ago.

Many GA investigations, particularly some in Alaska, the NTSB does entirely over the phone, never actually setting foot at the site. Doesn’t make the report come out any quicker.
 
This is why they determine “probable cause” and not “definitive cause.” I personally enjoy reading these threads. It doesn’t matter if we get it right, for me it matters more that we talk through all the ways not to die.

I was up with a CFI once last summer. When we were putting the plane away, another pilot told us about a recent fatal RV-8 crash. Word at the water cooler was that the pilot had used the rear seatbelt around the stick as a control lock and forgot it when he took off. And I realized that I hadn’t actually checked that my controls were free and correct before the flight I had just taken. Does it matter if that was the actual cause of that crash? Not really. Because either way, I’m a lot better about checking my controls before takeoff now.
 
Not saying it has anything to do with this accident, but I checked my seat slide the other day. Mine doesn’t go back enough to matter, even to the stop.

I normally do fashion some type of ‘control lock’ if parked outside for a few days, which is seldom.
 
iamtheari said:
This is why they determine “probable cause” and not “definitive cause.” I personally enjoy reading these threads. It doesn’t matter if we get it right, for me it matters more that we talk through all the ways not to die.

I was up with a CFI once last summer. When we were putting the plane away, another pilot told us about a recent fatal RV-8 crash. Word at the water cooler was that the pilot had used the rear seatbelt around the stick as a control lock and forgot it when he took off. And I realized that I hadn’t actually checked that my controls were free and correct before the flight I had just taken. Does it matter if that was the actual cause of that crash? Not really. Because either way, I’m a lot better about checking my controls before takeoff now.
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This. I once hired a CFI to work on something I found I was lacking on from a ‘speculation’ in one of these threads. Whether or not it turned out to be the ‘cause’ doesn’t matter.
 
iamtheari said:
And I realized that I hadn’t actually checked that my controls were free and correct before the flight I had just taken. Does it matter if that was the actual cause of that crash? Not really. Because either way, I’m a lot better about checking my controls before takeoff now.
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There was a 2014 accident at KBED of a Gulfstream where the crew, while waiting, engaged the gust lock, and forgot to disengage it during the startup process, leading to a fatal overrun off the runway. No question that this accident had the attention of my CFI during my training, and I'm reminded of it each time I check that the flight controls are free and correct as part of my pre-takeoff/runup.
 
Overlooked factor here is the nature of military "cargo" in fighting aircraft.

Ammunition, rockets, and bombs are all attached near the Center Of Gravity of the aircraft, and loaded or empty, COG is not an issue the pilot needs to consider.

If the cargo space in the SM 1019 is aft the rear seat, a modest weight might have enough arm to move the COG aft of the limit, and an uncontrol able pitch up at lift off.

Horsepower and long runways can overcome over gross, but out of trim aft fails on lift off.

Analysis of the wreckage will determine the weight, and if it was behind the rear seat.

If the cargo shifted and blocked the controls, that may be apparent.

I believe that the assigned investigators for this crash will be particularly thorough in dissecting the evidence.
 
I too feel they will end very thorough in looking at the evidence, but be very circumspect in determining the exact cause other than “pilot error”.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Is the presence of cargo known, or assumed?
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(from memory) .... in an earlier witness interview someone said that Dale and his wife arrived by car ... they were on the way to the cabin .... him by air ... her by car .... and because he would arrive there before her he loaded some of the supplies into the plane .... sounded like maybe building supplies compared to say a suitcase of clothes which would not likely have been mentioned.
 
His cargo was more likely to be food. Building materials would have been more suitable to car transport.

A cooler full of ice and perishables would be a rigid item that could have been the culprit.
 
sourdough44 said:
I’m still bummed by this accident, just saying.
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I am as well. None of us get to choose the time or way we check out. We're only in control of how we live, and Cpt. Snodgrass lived a hell of a life. Celebrate that and dont dwell on the other ****. Snort sure as hell wouldn't have.

Sent from my LML212VL using Tapatalk
 
geezer said:
Overlooked factor here is the nature of military "cargo" in fighting aircraft.

Ammunition, rockets, and bombs are all attached near the Center Of Gravity of the aircraft, and loaded or empty, COG is not an issue the pilot needs to consider.

If the cargo space in the SM 1019 is aft the rear seat, a modest weight might have enough arm to move the COG aft of the limit, and an uncontrol able pitch up at lift off.

Horsepower and long runways can overcome over gross, but out of trim aft fails on lift off.

Analysis of the wreckage will determine the weight, and if it was behind the rear seat.

If the cargo shifted and blocked the controls, that may be apparent.

I believe that the assigned investigators for this crash will be particularly thorough in dissecting the evidence.
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I don’t know about CG issues on the F14 but in the F18 CG while carrying external stores and the ammunition load of the gun were critical issues and carefully checked. Rotation speeds increased dramatically with 578 rounds in the gun and a centerline tank. Each type of ordnance had different effects on CG and which station it was hung on changed CG.
 
Probable cause released yesterday:

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: The pilot’s failure to remove the flight control lock before departure, which resulted in a loss of airplane control and impact with terrain. Contributing to the accident was his failure to perform an adequate preflight inspection and flight control check before takeoff.
 
Skyhawk-II said:
Probable cause released yesterday:

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: The pilot’s failure to remove the flight control lock before departure, which resulted in a loss of airplane control and impact with terrain. Contributing to the accident was his failure to perform an adequate preflight inspection and flight control check before takeoff.
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WOW:eek:
 
Of course we could take this further for the point of discussion.

Why is a gust lock inoperable from the seat?

Flap and gear levers used to be the same shape….

Still see carb heat and mixture controls that look the same…

Saw a guy grab the red knob (fuel cutoff) right next to the blue knob (prop control) in a pt6 powered jump plane recently…
 
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Not the first and won’t be the last.
 
Tools said:
Of course we could take this further for the point of discussion.

Why is a gust lock inoperable from the seat?

Flap and gear levers used to be the same shape….

Still see carb heat and mixture controls that look the same…

Saw a guy grab the red knob (fuel cutoff) right next to the blue knob (prop control) in a pt6 powered jump plane recently…
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The gust lock in the subject airplane can be operated from the pilot's seat, it's just difficult to remove during flight due to the aerodynamic forces on the elevators and ailerons.

Here's a link to some details of the gust lock found in the NTSB Docket portion of the accident report:

https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Docume...ileName=WPR21FA283 Control Lock Study-Rel.pdf

It's too bad that the SIAI-MARCHETTI folks didn't adopt the gust lock of the Cessna L-19 Bird Dog, which locks everything, including the rudder and brakes.
 
Familiarity breeds contempt. It was stressed on my first day of flight instruction to do a thorough preflight, always. Also, doing a flight control check from the cockpit is part of any checklist. Having said that, we are all liable to make a basic (fatal) error if we fly long enough.
 
Brad Smith said:
Familiarity breeds contempt. It was stressed on my first day of flight instruction to do a thorough preflight, always. Also, doing a flight control check from the cockpit is part of any checklist. Having said that, we are all liable to make a basic (fatal) error if we fly long enough.
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especially if we let hurry drive us
 
I can't speak for flying a stick or this plane, but even if I had a gust lock in there is NO WAY I wouldn't know prior to takeoff if it was engaged, even without doing a preflight check. I simply could not be in my plane, moving around, and not notice the yoke not moving. I mean I bump it, I lean on it, I hang my headset on it, I push it in for pax to get in.....if it was locked I would absolutely know long before an actual flight control check. not sure how that translates to this incident, because it's clear none of those things happened.
 
Comes back to an ‘Occam’s Razor’ type explanation & cause. I’d imagine it was evident to the on-site investigators. Yep, keep the mind engaged even with seemingly simple phases & tasks while flying. I do understand the takeoff phase is more critical than many others.
 
eman1200 said:
I can't speak for flying a stick or this plane, but even if I had a gust lock in there is NO WAY I wouldn't know prior to takeoff if it was engaged, even without doing a preflight check. I simply could not be in my plane, moving around, and not notice the yoke not moving. I mean I bump it, I lean on it, I hang my headset on it, I push it in for pax to get in.....if it was locked I would absolutely know long before an actual flight control check. not sure how that translates to this incident, because it's clear none of those things happened.
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If it could happen to Snort, it can happen to anyone else. Never rely on memory, familiarity with the plane or one’s perceived superior skill - use the checklist, every single time.
 
Brad Smith said:
Familiarity breeds contempt. It was stressed on my first day of flight instruction to do a thorough preflight, always. Also, doing a flight control check from the cockpit is part of any checklist. Having said that, we are all liable to make a basic (fatal) error if we fly long enough.
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During my preflight inspection one of the many tasks is to physically move the ailerons, elevator, and rudder. Isn't this standard preflight protocol for our small planes?

Yes I do a "controls free & clear" check after I board the aircraft.
 
Yes, this one seems as bad as the guy who took off with the padlock in the control yoke and the key that unlocked it was on the ring with the ignition key.
 
Daleandee said:
During my preflight inspection one of the many tasks is to physically move the ailerons, elevator, and rudder. Isn't this standard preflight protocol for our small planes?...
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side story:
I did a flight review once with a local kid CFI (one of those that basically never leaves the pattern except for instructional purposes).....he watched me do my preflight walk around. when I got to the tail and started wiggling the elevators and rudder he said don't do that! I said why not....he pointed to the plane where it says "do not push". I sht you not, that actually happened.
 
Daleandee said:
During my preflight inspection one of the many tasks is to physically move the ailerons, elevator, and rudder. Isn't this standard preflight protocol for our small planes?

Yes I do a "controls free & clear" check after I board the aircraft.
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and check to the stops
 
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