DA40's selling for under $100k

For a flight school, I would never own ether of those aircraft, I'd get some 150s and carbed 172s, why have the overhead for a plane that is going to be doing T&Gs and small x-countries it's whole life? After all a 70s 172 will your do your student x-countries and first solo just as well as a 100k cirrus/diamond.

True, but you'll miss out on a lot of potential students if you show them a 70's 172 on their first visit to the airport. They don't know if it's well-maintained or not, they just know that it looks old and worn out and they'll often decide that they don't feel like it's safe to fly in something like that. There is something to be said for ramp appeal, even for "training" aircraft. (I put it in quotes 'cuz while the DA40 would be a good trainer, it's also a pretty darn nice cross-country airplane afterwards.)
 
The data you need for both aircraft is deeper than what can be derived from the standard publicly available data.

Only if you're not creative. ;)

You need:
- Fleet size per year from 1998 to 2012 per type (available from GAMA reports)

Yup... And that's where I got it.

- hours flown per type per year: (not really available beyond extrapolation from hours of aircraft on the market together with overall trends like avgas consumption FAA reported landings and )

Ah, but it is. What I did is to get on Controller and the other sites and put the year and TTAF from each airplane for sale into a spreadsheet which calculated average hours per year by type. Not really that hard. It's not a good measure for how many hours all GA aircraft flew THIS year, but it does give you a pretty good idea of the number of hours per year per type.

- accident numbers per type: (pretty much available)

Exactly. So we do have the data. It did NOT look good for Cirrus. :no:

- early on (until 2004), the size of the SR20 fleet was multiples of the size of the DA40 fleet.

Mostly due to the fact that the SR20 had a 2-year lead, starting sales in 1999. But now we're at the point where both fleets are big enough to make some conclusions.

And as 80% of aviation accidents are pilot related, the significance of any difference between the airframes is questionable to start with.

True - And the Cirrus planes are not unsafe airplanes except for one thing: When you do crash 'em, they tend to burn, which makes otherwise survivable accidents into fatals. I do think the DA40 is a somewhat more forgiving airplane to fly as well. The rest of the difference in accident rates could easily be attributed to the way Cirrus markets their airplanes.
 
If you equate the trendiness of the interior to the airworthiness of the craft.. well if you wash out because of a ugly interior... thats good for GA, as the people who only fly trendy planes tend to be the ones I ready about lawn-darting in the NTSB reports :lol:

And those folks will never see the tuck and roll leather interior of my personal plane, if you dont understand what makes a plane, or for that matter an aviator, you have no business in my skies IMO.

:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

Attitudes like yours are what will cause the downfall of GA. This elitist "my skies" crap and "we want the average person to wash out" attitude are exactly why we have fewer people willing to put forth the time, money, and effort to become GA pilots. It's why FBO's are falling by the wayside, airports are closing due to lack of activity, and sooner or later you won't be able to enjoy "your skies" without homebrewing 100LL in your basement.

There are VERY few A&P's who are starting as student pilots - Mostly it's just your average folks walking in the door. When they have to spend upwards of $10,000 to get their Private and the plane they're going to do it in looks like something that was parked in grandpa's barn, they're not going to feel safe. Even if it's a new 172, it's better than an old junky one. Looks ARE important, and not just to the future-lawn-dart crowd. Everyone is going to want to feel safe, and like it or not, the airworthiness of the aircraft is not what does that, it's "does it look nice?"

I think that the LSA schools are so successful because they're not using this antiquated thought process - They're going out and buying relatively reasonably-priced, NEW airplanes. They may be small, but they generally do have at least a little ramp appeal, modern instrumentation, etc. That is what new students are looking for, and despite all the naysayers, those who have embraced LSA's as their primary trainers are doing very well. Those who are still using clapped-out 172's aren't. Those using newer 172's are doing better, but they're hampered by the ridiculous prices on the newer C-birds, having to charge more than what some can bear.
 
The fastest DA40s are at least 10 kts faster than older models but that is due to several factors. I can get a little better than140 kts cruise out of my 2003 DA40 under the right conditions. I think the "speed kit" landing gear uses smaller 15x6.00 MLG tires with more aerodynamic fairings and older models use 6.00x6 tires. The speed kit also has a nose gear strut fairing and the older models have none. I'll try to post some photos of both when I get the time.

Roger.

At what point did Diamond start installing the smaller gear & new fairings on the DA40?
If you want to can you install the new small gear and fairings on an older DA40?
 
:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

Attitudes like yours are what will cause the downfall of GA. This elitist "my skies" crap and "we want the average person to wash out" attitude are exactly why we have fewer people willing to put forth the time, money, and effort to become GA pilots. It's why FBO's are falling by the wayside, airports are closing due to lack of activity, and sooner or later you won't be able to enjoy "your skies" without homebrewing 100LL in your basement.

I believe the downfall of aviation will be the real elitist types (see "oh this airplane is 5 years old, must be unsafe") that will crash a plane into the ground, turn around and take the manufacturer to court, because they dare make a plane that could be crashed:goofy:

A few generations ago learning to fly wasnt that expensive for the average person, people didnt care about all this fancy CRAP, they knew that if they sucked they would die and it would be their own dumb fault and they cared to LEARN stick and rudder and chart reading.


I would say you have the downfall of GA a little (or rather quite a bit) backwards.


There are VERY few A&P's who are starting as student pilots - Mostly it's just your average folks walking in the door. When they have to spend upwards of $10,000 to get their Private and the plane they're going to do it in looks like something that was parked in grandpa's barn, they're not going to feel safe.

Dont need to be a A&P, but the Prius/calls AAA to change a flat crowd, yea they might feel that way, but GA aint hurting that bad!

The plane I first soloed in was a 1946' 7 series, she was/is in great shape, sure wasn't that great to look at, some patches from hangar rash, seats were cloth with a few stains, but the controls were balanced, the run-up was almost pointless, as she was spot on every time (through my entire PPL!), and I never found a snag, just added 1qt oil once in a blue moon.


I think that the LSA schools are so successful because they're not using this antiquated thought process - They're going out and buying relatively reasonably-priced, NEW airplanes. They may be small, but they generally do have at least a little ramp appeal, modern instrumentation, etc. That is what new students are looking for, and despite all the naysayers, those who have embraced LSA's as their primary trainers are doing very well. Those who are still using clapped-out 172's aren't. Those using newer 172's are doing better, but they're hampered by the ridiculous prices on the newer C-birds, having to charge more than what some can bear.

Where did you get that steaming pile of a idea! All the schools that I see that were dumb enough to buy the Flycatcher 162s arnt putting enough hours on them stay out of the red, as their gross is pathic and it just aint cost effective to match C-150 prices to attract people to fly your $150k turd. Same can be said for the elekrostars (or whatever they call those things) and the Piper reject LSA.

"Those using newer 172's are doing better" LMAO, go look at a flight school that has been around for 70 years, like one outfit in WA, most of the hours flown over there on their fleet of 172 and 150s, are in the carbed model 172s and the 150s, think they have one token 2000ish 172S that NO ONE flys, because it doesnt make sense to just flush that extra 20 bucks down the toilet, even student pilots without even a fam flight under their belt seem to figure that one out!
 
At what point did Diamond start installing the smaller gear & new fairings on the DA40?

It appears that it happened at S/N 40.350 and above, a very early 2004 model.

If you want to can you install the new small gear and fairings on an older DA40?

Yes. Optional Service Bulletin OSB-40-025/1 and Mandatory Design Change MAM 40-123 are the relevant documents.
 
I believe the downfall of aviation will be the real elitist types (see "oh this airplane is 5 years old, must be unsafe") that will crash a plane into the ground, turn around and take the manufacturer to court, because they dare make a plane that could be crashed:goofy:

Not all of 'em will crash... But if we drive away all of them plus everyone else, there won't be anyone to buy new airplanes in the first place, so the manufacturers will cease to exist.

A few generations ago learning to fly wasnt that expensive for the average person, people didnt care about all this fancy CRAP, they knew that if they sucked they would die and it would be their own dumb fault and they cared to LEARN stick and rudder and chart reading.

None of that is necessarily untrue now either, though the costs have increased.

But, also compare this to cars. Despite numerous safety improvements over the years, people still die in cars at a horrific rate that really hasn't improved in the last decade. The more safety features the manufacturers build in, the more complacent people are with their driving. Does that mean that we should get rid of all the safety improvements that have been added? No, because those who do drive safely still have an increased chance of surviving an accident.

Dont need to be a A&P, but the Prius/calls AAA to change a flat crowd, yea they might feel that way, but GA aint hurting that bad!

IMO, GA *is* hurting that bad. In the last 25ish years, the number of active pilots has dropped 25%, and student starts are way down. GA is dying.

The plane I first soloed in was a 1946' 7 series, she was/is in great shape, sure wasn't that great to look at, some patches from hangar rash, seats were cloth with a few stains, but the controls were balanced, the run-up was almost pointless, as she was spot on every time (through my entire PPL!), and I never found a snag, just added 1qt oil once in a blue moon.

Great - But show a classic tube/fabric airplane or a ratty old 172 to the average person off the street, and they're likely to walk away. To them, old = unsafe.

Where did you get that steaming pile of a idea! All the schools that I see that were dumb enough to buy the Flycatcher 162s arnt putting enough hours on them stay out of the red, as their gross is pathic and it just aint cost effective to match C-150 prices to attract people to fly your $150k turd. Same can be said for the elekrostars (or whatever they call those things) and the Piper reject LSA.

There's no excuse for the Skycatcher - They really didn't do a very good job with them at all, the useful load sucks, the interior sucks, etc... The main thing the Skycatcher did is give some sort of legitimacy to the LSA market. However, there are some other LSA's that are quite nice.

Some schools have completely ignored LSA's. Others have bought a token LSA but steer their customers towards "real" airplanes and the more-expensive Private certificate. I'm sure there's some out there that are a combination of normal and LSA aircraft that promote the LSA's sufficiently, but I've yet to see one. But, look at Chesapeake Sport Pilot and other schools that are using only LSA's, and they're thriving.

"Those using newer 172's are doing better" LMAO, go look at a flight school that has been around for 70 years, like one outfit in WA, most of the hours flown over there on their fleet of 172 and 150s, are in the carbed model 172s and the 150s, think they have one token 2000ish 172S that NO ONE flys, because it doesnt make sense to just flush that extra 20 bucks down the toilet, even student pilots without even a fam flight under their belt seem to figure that one out!

I think it largely depends on the area you're in. A rural community probably has enough people who know that looks ≠ maintenance probably does really well with old airplanes, while a busy urban airport where there's more people who aren't mechanically inclined probably doesn't. It used to be when I was learning to fly that the old planes would fly like mad and the one newer one that was more expensive would sit a lot of the time. Now, it seems to be the opposite: I hear the newer ones on frequency all the time, while the lone remaining 172N I haven't heard in a long time.

I think maybe it's just gotten to the point that the maintenance $$$ required to keep the old ones going has caused the price gap to close. I should go check out the rental rates one of these days.
 
I think it largely depends on the area you're in. A rural community probably has enough people who know that looks ≠ maintenance probably does really well with old airplanes, while a busy urban airport where there's more people who aren't mechanically inclined probably doesn't. It used to be when I was learning to fly that the old planes would fly like mad and the one newer one that was more expensive would sit a lot of the time. Now, it seems to be the opposite: I hear the newer ones on frequency all the time, while the lone remaining 172N I haven't heard in a long time.

I think maybe it's just gotten to the point that the maintenance $$$ required to keep the old ones going has caused the price gap to close. I should go check out the rental rates one of these days.

Yup. I'll vouch for that. Back when I was in Daytona for training, the FBO had a bunch of 172SP's and a lone 172L. 172L very rarely flew, even though it was cheaper.
 
It appears that it happened at S/N 40.350 and above, a very early 2004 model.



Yes. Optional Service Bulletin OSB-40-025/1 and Mandatory Design Change MAM 40-123 are the relevant documents.

Interesting, thanks.
 
It appears that it happened at S/N 40.350 and above, a very early 2004 model.



Yes. Optional Service Bulletin OSB-40-025/1 and Mandatory Design Change MAM 40-123 are the relevant documents.
Wait a minute. OSB-025/1 is the service bulletin for new main landing gear struts which are necessary for the gross weight increase. The service bulletin for the speed kit is OSB-40-16/3. The speed kit OSB is dated 16 June 2006. Here is a link to all of the DA40 service bulletins. http://www.diamond-air.at/da40-180_sb+M52087573ab0.html
 

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Wait a minute. OSB-025/1 is the service bulletin for new main landing gear struts which are necessary for the gross weight increase. The service bulletin for the speed kit is OSB-40-16/3. The speed kit OSB is dated 16 June 2006. Here is a link to all of the DA40 service bulletins. http://www.diamond-air.at/da40-180_sb+M52087573ab0.html

Ah, OK. I think the speed gear and the weight increase were added to production models at the same time, which may be why I confused the docs.

It's easier to just take it to the Diamond dealer and tell 'em you want the new gear. ;)
 
Ah, OK. I think the speed gear and the weight increase were added to production models at the same time, which may be why I confused the docs.

It's easier to just take it to the Diamond dealer and tell 'em you want the new gear. ;)
Don't forget to bring your checkbook. I think somebody told me it runs around $5,000 and I don't know if that includes the new tires. There is hope that LoPresti will develop new fairings as they did for Cirrus but it's a smaller market so it may never happen.
 
Don't forget to bring your checkbook. I think somebody told me it runs around $5,000 and I don't know if that includes the new tires. There is hope that LoPresti will develop new fairings as they did for Cirrus but it's a smaller market so it may never happen.

Yeah, that was one of the questions we were getting answered when buying ours. The new legs + fairings gets you increased landing weight and speed and isn't cheap.

We're getting the increased max gross mod in a couple of weeks, which is much cheaper. However, I think it requires the heavy-duty speed gear to already be installed.
 
I agree with KSCessnaDriver. I have over 400 hrs on my 2003 DA40 since I bought it in 2007.

The 1000 and 2000 hour inspections are costly, possibly as much as $10,000 for the 2000 hour inspection. The rudder cables need to be replaced every 5 years.

FWIW, the bill for our 1000-hour inspection plus annual plus mag overhaul, etc. was a bit under $6,000. We've had plenty of annuals on other planes that cost us more.

Also, I think I mentioned it elsewhere, but the 5-year rudder cable replacement was really pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things aviation - Under $700.
 
Yeah, that was one of the questions we were getting answered when buying ours. The new legs + fairings gets you increased landing weight and speed and isn't cheap.

We're getting the increased max gross mod in a couple of weeks, which is much cheaper. However, I think it requires the heavy-duty speed gear to already be installed.
I had the gross weight increase for my 2003 DA40. I think I was charged about $2,000 for the new main landing gear struts and about 14 hours labor. DA40s after 40.350 should already have the landing gear struts required for the gross weight increase. The remainder of the gross weight increase was a few hundred bucks for new placards and an elevator bushing not including installation. You can keep the regular tires and fairings.
 
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