Da-40

Skip Miller

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Skip Miller
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Hmmm, I'm interested. I may have the chance to buy into an "older" aka steam gauge Diamond DA-40, with one or two other partners. Lyc IO-360. Price, hours, avionics etc. are all unknown at this point. From the literature, it looks like this would be a good plane for me in terms of range, load, etc.

Tell me about the plane. What are its gotchas? Good points?

-Skip
 
Pros: efficient, relatively fast plane. Sexy. Bubble canopy, so great visibility. fixed gear should help insurance.

Cons: bubble canopy, so not good if you need to enplane/deplane in the rain. Can also get hot. Seat isn't adjustable, and can be uncomfortable depending on your physique. Try it on a long trip to see how it fits you. The pedals, which move fore and aft, can be difficult to reach of you are rotund. The range is okay, but not great. Of course, I'm comparing against a 182 with 88 gal usable.
Not sure what effect the composite construction will have on the insurance. Checking fuel visually uses a weird contraption that plugs into the sump that I understand leads to fuel spurting out. Never used it myself, so I can't confirm.

The center stick means nowhere to clip your approach plates and makes a full lap pad impractical.

Many of these things are personal preferences and you'll have to decide whether they matter to you.

Probably not the best plane for short field work. The manual is pretty poor.
 
Thanks, Grant. I'll have to try one on for size to see if I fit, as I am a big guy...

-Skip
 
Thanks, Grant. I'll have to try one on for size to see if I fit, as I am a big guy...

-Skip
I've found it most uncomfortable in the lower back, as they have no lumbar support. I understand that next year's models are doing something about that, but it won't help you. Many people use a towel or shirt placed in the lower back to help.
 
I've found it most uncomfortable in the lower back, as they have no lumbar support. I understand that next year's models are doing something about that, but it won't help you. Many people use a towel or shirt placed in the lower back to help.
Ouch! -Skip (recovering from a L5-S1 disc error!)
 
I actually got to see a new DA40XL this past saturday at our New Aircraft Expo... IIRC, it had adjustable lumbar support. Again, that doesn't help you, though...
 
On the way to Gastons, Matt taught me that an AFD makes an excelent Lumbar support.
 
I actually got to see a new DA40XL this past saturday at our New Aircraft Expo... IIRC, it had adjustable lumbar support. Again, that doesn't help you, though...
That must be the next year's model. The DA-40XL I fly doesn't have that.
 
I haven't flown the 40 but I do have a fair amount of hours in the 20 and love it. It is a modern efficient airplane with a lot of thought put into the cockpit layout.

I would be surprised if the DA-40 isn't good at short field. It will fly slow, light wing loading, and lots of wing area. The 20 was one of the better performing airplanes on takeoff at Gastons.
 
I haven't flown the 40 but I do have a fair amount of hours in the 20 and love it. It is a modern efficient airplane with a lot of thought put into the cockpit layout.

I would be surprised if the DA-40 isn't good at short field. It will fly slow, light wing loading, and lots of wing area. The 20 was one of the better performing airplanes on takeoff at Gastons.
I'm going by memory of the book numbers. Jesse, you probably have the book handy; how about some specifics! :)
 
I'm going by memory of the book numbers. Jesse, you probably have the book handy; how about some specifics! :)

I don't have it on hand right now..but..

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/specs/da40diamondstar.html

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Takeoff ground roll (ft.): [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]720[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Takeoff over 50-ft. obstacle (ft.): [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]1150

[/FONT] That is pretty good...Those numbers are at gross too, I think. I'll look in the POH when I get a chance.
 
From the book:

Standard day, 2500 lbs, sea level, no wind = about 1100 feet over a 50 ft obstacle. Landing over 50 ft obstacle is about 2000 feet.

Source: DA40 AFM, Rev 7
 
From the book:

Standard day, 2500 lbs, sea level, no wind = about 1100 feet over a 50 ft obstacle. Landing over 50 ft obstacle is about 2000 feet.

Source: DA40 AFM, Rev 7

I bet that 2000 ft landing could be reduced * a lot * by slipping it in. The problem with the Diamonds is they don't slow down easily. So if you did a standard approach over the 50 foot obstacle, yeah, you'd waste a lot of runway. They also don't slip that great either but it would help.
 
Very few runways have 50 foot obstacles right at the thresholds, so it's not likely to be an issue. Ground roll is less than 1000 feet. The Diamonds really show their glider heritage when it comes to slowing down and going down.
 
Very few runways have 50 foot obstacles right at the thresholds, so it's not likely to be an issue. Ground roll is less than 1000 feet. The Diamonds really show their glider heritage when it comes to slowing down and going down.

True. My DA-40 time is nill. But my time in DA-20's has shown me it's a very capable short field machine if you know how to control your energy. It doesn't slow down fast but it will fly very well at very slow speeds.
 
  • A DA-40 has the most harmonious configuration of flight controls I've ever experienced--it felt like playing a keyboard.

  • Seat pan to canopy clearance isn't the greatest for tall people--I'm 6'5" and it wasn't pleasant even for something as brief as three pattern circuits.
 
I don't have it on hand right now..but..

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/specs/da40diamondstar.html

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Takeoff ground roll (ft.): [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]720[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Takeoff over 50-ft. obstacle (ft.): [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]1150

[/FONT] That is pretty good...Those numbers are at gross too, I think. I'll look in the POH when I get a chance.
You whiners :D

If ya can't set it down vertical, what good is it :dunno:

Just foolin' :yes:

Or maybe not :dunno:

Sorry... couldn't resist...
 
Ground roll is less than 1000 feet. The Diamonds really show their glider heritage when it comes to slowing down and going down.

gliders are very easy to land short as well with proper airspeed control and energy management.

when i land out (often) i rarely roll further than 100 yards, and that in a low wind situation with medium braking.
 
Tell me about the plane. What are its gotchas? Good points?

Off the top of my head...

Good points: Very efficient - Diamond extracts more knots per gallon than any other non-complex airplane. On the "older" ones, you should see around 140KTAS on around 10 GPH. It hold 40 gallons standard, though there is a long-range option with 50 gallons. Still, 420nm with an hour reserve is pretty good, and it'll get you there quick enough that you might not have to make a beeline for the bathroom.

Visibility is amazing. You have about a 210-degree panorama horizontally, you can look pretty much straight up, and straight down even though it's a low wing because the high aspect ratio (read: narrow) wing's leading edge is about at the back of the pilot's seat. You can also (Well, I can) see down in front quite well (like 30 degrees below level) due to the sloped cowl. The visibility makes me feel more like *I* am flying, rather than just sitting in a little tin can up in the air.

Glide ratio is very good, so you have more options in the event of an engine failure. Safety record is very good as well, I think the only DA40 fatalities so far resulted from a botched instrument approach into power lines.

Bad points: It might be a bit hot on very sunny days. Newer models have more of the canopy painted on top, but honestly I like the older ones better in that regard. I like that visibility! Also, you can lock the canopy about 4" open on the ground on hot days, so it'll just be the few moments prior to takeoff that'll be really hot. You'll want to get a cover for when it's parked, though.

It's not made for really really tall people. If you're over 6'4", forget it. I put the rudder pedals all the way forward and I'm comfortable until I put my thickly-padded Lightspeeds on, and then I have to slouch just a bit to not bump my head on the canopy. If my club gets a DA40, I'm planning on getting an in-ear headset to give me more clearance.

The stall warning is freakin' annoying. It comes on WAY above the stall, so you'll hear it way too often, and you probably cannot land without it coming on. IMHO, this needs to be fixed so that people don't ignore it.

Since the wings are so narrow, the tanks are long and if you're not topped off or fairly close to it, you can't see fuel in the tanks. They include a fuel level measuring device that's pretty weird - It hooks to the sump drains and you put it on a notch in the leading edge of the wing. Fuel flows into it and you read the level. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it is odd.

General info: The vast majority of these (non-G1000) were equipped with 530+430, KAP 140 autopilot, slaved HSI, premium interior. Those that do not have this level of equipment will take a big hit on resale. Expect prices in the $175,000 range equipped like this, and much lower if not. Embry-Riddle had a bunch with no autopilot that have been for sale recently, and ASI Jet Center has one that had King avionics instead of Garmin (there is/was that option, but almost nobody took it) that has been for sale forever. (At least two years, and hasn't sold even when they cut the price way down. I think it's still out there with "make an offer" listed... N465DS.) Point: Try to find one with 530/430/autopilot installed already if you ever want to be able to sell it for much.

There is an owners group, DAPO, at dapo.org that has a forum that's pretty darn good.

The most common mechanical problem is cracked exhaust risers, so pay special attention to those on the pre-buy.

Most of the earlier ones had the 3-blade composite MT prop. Be nice to it, I don't think you can repair them as easily as the metal ones.

With the center stick mounted in the seat, you may not be able to give a ride to someone wearing a skirt! :no: :goofy: However, it does give you a good view of the panel.

The engine gauges are in one big electronic display, the Vision Microsystems VM1000.

I've found the best technique for flying it is to not actually touch the stick, but to hold your hand around the stick in a circle and then just kind of "think" it in the direction you want it to go. It takes just a very light touch. Nimble, but not unstable at all (which is why it flies so well when you're not holding on to the stick!) It maneuvers very nicely as well, and once you get the hang of flying it, it's an easy bird to land too. Or, maybe I've just gotten really lucky. I've never had a bad landing in one, and my best landing ever was in one - I'd never believed it was possible to not know you'd landed until it happened to me!

If you have a yoke board or yoke-mounted GPS, you might need to invest in some new hardware. Zuluworks makes a "Mini-Z" board that's designed with the DA40 in mind (Zuluworks' owner, Rob Honeycutt, owns a DA40).

Despite what Grant said and what you may think based on Cirrus' performance, the DA40 is actually an excellent short-field machine. I forget the exact numbers for each, but it compares favorably with a 182.

Useful load is best-in-class. 660 pounds or so. The older birds do have a slightly lower landing weight, but I believe you can do something to remove that restriction, the newer ones from the factory don't have that limitation. (A good question to ask of DAPO.)

Hope this helps!

Kent
 
Hmmm, I'm interested. I may have the chance to buy into an "older" aka steam gauge Diamond DA-40, with one or two other partners. Lyc IO-360. Price, hours, avionics etc. are all unknown at this point. From the literature, it looks like this would be a good plane for me in terms of range, load, etc.

Tell me about the plane. What are its gotchas? Good points?

-Skip

I liked the one I flew. I found the handling a bit heavy and it can get pretty warm on the ground, but all in all, I was pretty positive on it.
 
With the center stick mounted in the seat, you may not be able to give a ride to someone wearing a skirt! :no: :goofy: However, it does give you a good view of the panel.
I had to read this twice to make sure I knew what you were getting a good view of! :yes::rofl:
Despite what Grant said and what you may think based on Cirrus' performance, the DA40 is actually an excellent short-field machine. I forget the exact numbers for each, but it compares favorably with a 182.
Based on the postings from the book (thanks guys), I retract my from-memory statement about short field performance, though the fact that it is a low wing with LONG wings may be a factor in going into some narrower fields. Maybe it's just my apparent bias for the 182 that made me write that! :dunno: It may also have been the 50' obstacle number that I was remembering.
 
Me too, been recovering for the last 20 years, though I didn't have any issues with the DA-40 I flew...YMMV
I flew it on Saturday. What a sweet plane! Too small though... The seat was not an issue for my back, but my legs were hitting the underside of the panel and in moderate turbulence my head was meeting the canopy too frequently. The ASI showed 160 at 24 squared, 2500 feet altitude.

-Skip
 
My understanding is that they raised the bottom of the panel in later versions because of exactly that complaint. I'm no DA40 expert (but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express) but you may want to check that out.
 
My understanding is that they raised the bottom of the panel in later versions because of exactly that complaint. I'm no DA40 expert (but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express) but you may want to check that out.
Won't work. I flew a new (160 hours) DA40 and had the problem. We hoped to shop for an older, steam gauge DA40 that would probably be worse, not better.

-Skip
 
Off the top of my head...

Good points: Very efficient - Diamond extracts more knots per gallon than any other non-complex airplane. On the "older" ones, you should see around 140KTAS on around 10 GPH. It hold 40 gallons standard, though there is a long-range option with 50 gallons. Still, 420nm with an hour reserve is pretty good, and it'll get you there quick enough that you might not have to make a beeline for the bathroom.

Visibility is amazing. You have about a 210-degree panorama horizontally, you can look pretty much straight up, and straight down even though it's a low wing because the high aspect ratio (read: narrow) wing's leading edge is about at the back of the pilot's seat. You can also (Well, I can) see down in front quite well (like 30 degrees below level) due to the sloped cowl. The visibility makes me feel more like *I* am flying, rather than just sitting in a little tin can up in the air.

Glide ratio is very good, so you have more options in the event of an engine failure. Safety record is very good as well, I think the only DA40 fatalities so far resulted from a botched instrument approach into power lines.

Bad points: It might be a bit hot on very sunny days. Newer models have more of the canopy painted on top, but honestly I like the older ones better in that regard. I like that visibility! Also, you can lock the canopy about 4" open on the ground on hot days, so it'll just be the few moments prior to takeoff that'll be really hot. You'll want to get a cover for when it's parked, though.

It's not made for really really tall people. If you're over 6'4", forget it. I put the rudder pedals all the way forward and I'm comfortable until I put my thickly-padded Lightspeeds on, and then I have to slouch just a bit to not bump my head on the canopy. If my club gets a DA40, I'm planning on getting an in-ear headset to give me more clearance.

The stall warning is freakin' annoying. It comes on WAY above the stall, so you'll hear it way too often, and you probably cannot land without it coming on. IMHO, this needs to be fixed so that people don't ignore it.

Since the wings are so narrow, the tanks are long and if you're not topped off or fairly close to it, you can't see fuel in the tanks. They include a fuel level measuring device that's pretty weird - It hooks to the sump drains and you put it on a notch in the leading edge of the wing. Fuel flows into it and you read the level. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it is odd.

General info: The vast majority of these (non-G1000) were equipped with 530+430, KAP 140 autopilot, slaved HSI, premium interior. Those that do not have this level of equipment will take a big hit on resale. Expect prices in the $175,000 range equipped like this, and much lower if not. Embry-Riddle had a bunch with no autopilot that have been for sale recently, and ASI Jet Center has one that had King avionics instead of Garmin (there is/was that option, but almost nobody took it) that has been for sale forever. (At least two years, and hasn't sold even when they cut the price way down. I think it's still out there with "make an offer" listed... N465DS.) Point: Try to find one with 530/430/autopilot installed already if you ever want to be able to sell it for much.

There is an owners group, DAPO, at dapo.org that has a forum that's pretty darn good.

The most common mechanical problem is cracked exhaust risers, so pay special attention to those on the pre-buy.

Most of the earlier ones had the 3-blade composite MT prop. Be nice to it, I don't think you can repair them as easily as the metal ones.

With the center stick mounted in the seat, you may not be able to give a ride to someone wearing a skirt! :no: :goofy: However, it does give you a good view of the panel.

The engine gauges are in one big electronic display, the Vision Microsystems VM1000.

I've found the best technique for flying it is to not actually touch the stick, but to hold your hand around the stick in a circle and then just kind of "think" it in the direction you want it to go. It takes just a very light touch. Nimble, but not unstable at all (which is why it flies so well when you're not holding on to the stick!) It maneuvers very nicely as well, and once you get the hang of flying it, it's an easy bird to land too. Or, maybe I've just gotten really lucky. I've never had a bad landing in one, and my best landing ever was in one - I'd never believed it was possible to not know you'd landed until it happened to me!

If you have a yoke board or yoke-mounted GPS, you might need to invest in some new hardware. Zuluworks makes a "Mini-Z" board that's designed with the DA40 in mind (Zuluworks' owner, Rob Honeycutt, owns a DA40).

Despite what Grant said and what you may think based on Cirrus' performance, the DA40 is actually an excellent short-field machine. I forget the exact numbers for each, but it compares favorably with a 182.

Useful load is best-in-class. 660 pounds or so. The older birds do have a slightly lower landing weight, but I believe you can do something to remove that restriction, the newer ones from the factory don't have that limitation. (A good question to ask of DAPO.)

Hope this helps!

Kent
Hi

I was browsing on website with my plane tail number and came across this number. My current plane was manufactured in 2012 and use the same tail number N465DS since then. I saw this discussion happened on 2007 which is almost 20 years ago. You probably don't remember, but if you do, do you know what this tail number N465DS was on at that time? It seems like a DA40 as well then? I am curious to see what plane this tail number was on and what happened to that plane eventually. idk where I can find this info. I am pretty sure FAA has it somewhere, but I can only have the current registration info for it. Thanks!!! and sorry to bother it after almost 20 years!
 
Hi

I was browsing on website with my plane tail number and came across this number. My current plane was manufactured in 2012 and use the same tail number N465DS since then. I saw this discussion happened on 2007 which is almost 20 years ago. You probably don't remember, but if you do, do you know what this tail number N465DS was on at that time? It seems like a DA40 as well then? I am curious to see what plane this tail number was on and what happened to that plane eventually. idk where I can find this info. I am pretty sure FAA has it somewhere, but I can only have the current registration info for it. Thanks!!! and sorry to bother it after almost 20 years!
Looking back at that post, it was an early Diamond Star (DA40), would have been 2003 or before without glass cockpit, that had King avionics instead of Garmin.

You must have the current N465DS, serial number 40.1165?

It looks like the previous N465DS was S/N 40.065, originally owned by Diamond, and then Modern Aero (a Diamond dealer), they are the ones who were selling it at the time of that old post. It looks like they sold it to someone in Germany, as it was deregistered as "Exported" with a destination of Germany on June 13th, 2007 so right around the time of that previous post!

The German registry is not publicly accessible, though it appears that you can buy some information for 40 Euros if you're really interested in knowing what tail number it wears now, or its whereabouts!
 
Looking back at that post, it was an early Diamond Star (DA40), would have been 2003 or before without glass cockpit, that had King avionics instead of Garmin.

You must have the current N465DS, serial number 40.1165?

It looks like the previous N465DS was S/N 40.065, originally owned by Diamond, and then Modern Aero (a Diamond dealer), they are the ones who were selling it at the time of that old post. It looks like they sold it to someone in Germany, as it was deregistered as "Exported" with a destination of Germany on June 13th, 2007 so right around the time of that previous post!

The German registry is not publicly accessible, though it appears that you can buy some information for 40 Euros if you're really interested in knowing what tail number it wears now, or its whereabouts!
Thanks for the information!! It is a interest find in the history! Yes I am owning the current N465DS with sn 40.1165. With the previous sn 065. does that mean it was the 65th diamond being built and we are exactly 1100 DA40 apart? lol
 
How did I miss this? (I hadn't even joined POA yet.) At one time I was interested in a DA40, enough to join a quasi club to get some time in one. It was a pre glass model. I liked that it had a stick, and that it was "new." I disliked the castering nosewheel, and for some reason it wouldn't idle normally on a hot day (vapor lock I think.) I generally liked it, but not enough to go buy one.
 
How did I miss this? (I hadn't even joined POA yet.) At one time I was interested in a DA40, enough to join a quasi club to get some time in one. It was a pre glass model. I liked that it had a stick, and that it was "new." I disliked the castering nosewheel, and for some reason it wouldn't idle normally on a hot day (vapor lock I think.) I generally liked it, but not enough to go buy one.
I first flew pre-glass DA40s and am now in a club with two glass models. IMO, from a purchasing standpoint, I'd prefer the pre-glass. A friend just bought one and put in a G3X Touch and GTN 650xi. Unfortunately, he's stuck with the KAP140 - no STC for the GFC500 or 600.
 
Thanks for the information!! It is a interest find in the history! Yes I am owning the current N465DS with sn 40.1165. With the previous sn 065. does that mean it was the 65th diamond being built and we are exactly 1100 DA40 apart? lol
It would seem so!

How did I miss this? (I hadn't even joined POA yet.) At one time I was interested in a DA40, enough to join a quasi club to get some time in one. It was a pre glass model. I liked that it had a stick, and that it was "new." I disliked the castering nosewheel, and for some reason it wouldn't idle normally on a hot day (vapor lock I think.) I generally liked it, but not enough to go buy one.
Our club did purchase one, and it was a FANTASTIC investment. Before we had it, people were literally giving away memberships (in an equity club!!!); afterwards they started selling for real money again and there was vastly increased interested in joining our club over the other two multi-plane clubs on the field (one with 172s, one with Arrow/172/Archer). The plane cost about 40% less to maintain than the other birds, yet demand to fly it was very high so it was (and is!) the only one that we ended up charging more per hour than it cost to run. That allowed loans on all three planes to be paid off faster and now the DA40 has been upgraded to WAAS and another plane got an entirely new Garmin glass panel. The IO-360-M1A was overhauled at somewhere north of 3600 hours, not because it needed it, but just because the club figured it was better to knock it out in winter when flying was slow rather than actually wait for it to be needed.

And all that's even before you get to fly it. It's a really fun plane to fly, very well harmonized and light on the controls, amazing visibility, very fast and efficient compared to others in its class.

About the only drawback to the DA40 in the club environment is that it goes through tires and brakes quicker than the other planes do because of the castering nosewheel and a bunch of pilots who also fly steerable-nosewheel aircraft that aren't known for requiring one to know how to use one's feet on the rudder pedals.

I first flew pre-glass DA40s and am now in a club with two glass models. IMO, from a purchasing standpoint, I'd prefer the pre-glass. A friend just bought one and put in a G3X Touch and GTN 650xi. Unfortunately, he's stuck with the KAP140 - no STC for the GFC500 or 600.
Probably because they don't STC the GFC500 for G1000 birds, and there's a small and fixed number of DA40s without the G1000.
 
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