DA-20 Training Aircraft For PPL

[thepetrostate]

A flight training school is offering a $5,500 PPL program using only their fleet of DA-20s.

Includes:
- 30 Hrs Dual Flight
- 5 Hrs Solo Flight
- Flight Briefings
- Jeppesen Online
Groundschool

Excludes external cost of about $775 for

- Written Exam
- Medical Exam
- FAA Check Ride
- Books (FAR/AIM, AFM)

Training on the DA-20 means that you would have to transition to a Cessna 1xx to get more reasonable rental rates.

They have two DA-20s at $130.hr (assuming they are available) and nine (9) DA-40s from $170 to $200/hr (+ 6% tax on nontraining flights)

Additionally:

• Flight times are FAA Part 141 Private Pilot training minimums, average students require 42 hours. Each student is different and may require more flight or ground training.
• Any additional training in this course will be at our current published hourly rates and eligible for the 15% discount.
• Graduates of this course will be offered the 15% discount towards additional courses and rentals at the discretion of Europe-American Aviation.
• The 15% discount is subject to change without notice.
• This program and discount may not be used with any other published or unpublished discount programs.
• Early withdraw will result in flight & ground hours being charged at current retail prices.
• Package requires $500 non-refundable deposit before arrival, $2,500 deposit at arrival and $2,475 before your account reaches zero balance.
• Any unused monies will be promptly refunded.
• As always prices are subject to change without notice.

Good deal? Bad deal?

 

[roebuck85]

Well, my local school charges 125 /hr for a 172 + 7% sales tax thats 4012.5 for 30 hours. Add another 688.75 for the 5 solo hours. And you get 4681.25. Local school charges 48 /hr for instruction so add another 1440 for 30 hrs and you're up to 6121.25 Granted you might do it in more time but with them throwing in groundschool, pre-and post flight briefings for the quoted 30 hoursm etc.. It doesn't seem like a bad rate. I also like the fact that they don't ask for all of the money up front, only a portion which is common to many block hour discount programs.

Compare hourly rates at other local schools, do enough research to determine the school is reputable, and then decide if the school is right for you.

 

[thepetrostate]

Well, my local school charges 125 /hr for a 172 + 7% sales tax thats 4012.5 for 30 hours. Add another 688.75 for the 5 solo hours. And you get 4681.25. Local school charges 48 /hr for instruction so add another 1440 for 30 hrs and you're up to 6121.25 Granted you might do it in more time but with them throwing in groundschool, pre-and post flight briefings for the quoted 30 hoursm etc.. It doesn't seem like a bad rate. I also like the fact that they don't ask for all of the money up front, only a portion which is common to many block hour discount programs.

Compare hourly rates at other local schools, do enough research to determine the school is reputable, and then decide if the school is right for you.

Got my PPL. What is your comment on training in the DA-20 when there are so few (2 when available) to rent in the local area?

 

[Clark1961]

Got my PPL. What is your comment on training in the DA-20 when there are so few (2 when available) to rent in the local area?

Nothing unusual about it. There will be a few scheduling snafus as the aircraft go down for maintenance. Transition to other aircraft after earning PP privileges will be fairly easy.

 

[roebuck85]

Got my PPL. What is your comment on training in the DA-20 when there are so few (2 when available) to rent in the local area?

Ah, I see, I was trying to aswer as to wether it was a good deal or not. Does it really matter what you train in? I started years ago flying with my Dad in his pacer, That was the first airplane I soloed, Out of flying till last year. A local school has a 172 and two light sports, I was working towards a PPL in the light sports because it was cheaper. One was an Allegro 2007, probably about 30 or so of them in the US. The other was a FM-250, or Mystique, The only one flying in the US. Not a whole lot of rental options for those airplanes aafter training. Towards the end of training I started flying the 172 and decided to do my checride in that. I had 5 hours logged in that airplane when I went for the test, If a student can change from one airplane to another that are quite diffirent in just a few hours, a PPL shouldn't have too much trouble going from a DA-20 to a 1xx, A Cherokee, Archer, etc...

 

[thepetrostate]

Ah, I see, I was trying to aswer as to wether it was a good deal or not. Does it really matter what you train in? I started years ago flying with my Dad in his pacer, That was the first airplane I soloed, Out of flying till last year. A local school has a 172 and two light sports, I was working towards a PPL in the light sports because it was cheaper. One was an Allegro 2007, probably about 30 or so of them in the US. The other was a FM-250, or Mystique, The only one flying in the US. Not a whole lot of rental options for those airplanes after training. Towards the end of training I started flying the 172 and decided to do my checkride in that. I had 5 hours logged in that airplane when I went for the test, If a student can change from one airplane to another that are quite different in just a few hours, a PPL shouldn't have too much trouble going from a DA-20 to a 1xx, A Cherokee, Archer, etc...

That's their pitch, too, the change is simple. What they don't point out is that if you train in their DA-20, you will have limited availability of their DA-20's since they are for training primarily. This forces you to rent one of their DA-40s at $170-$200/hr or switch to another rental company.

I agree though the switching isn't that huge a deal and, in the long run, if you keep flying, it is more fun to switch and the need to learn other planes becomes a necessity.

 

[jesse]

Not too bad of a deal .. but there is no way in hell I'd give them this money:

Package requires $500 non-refundable deposit before arrival, $2,500 deposit at arrival and $2,475 before your account reaches zero balance.

If they wouldn't let me pay as I went I'd find another school that would...as most...will.

 

[thepetrostate]

Originally Posted by thepetrostate
Got my PPL. What is your comment on training in the DA-20 when there are so few (2 when available) to rent in the local area?

Nothing unusual about it. There will be a few scheduling snafus as the aircraft go down for maintenance. Transition to other aircraft after earning PP privileges will be fairly easy.

They kinda walk a fine line here as they don't go out of their way to let you know the availability of the DA-20s is practically non-existent due to their use as trainers. They are Diamond only dealers.

When asked if there is a difference in the DA-20 and say a Cessna 17x, they talk quickly about the approach attitude and speed etc sorta glossing it over. The airport is affected by winds from the ocean so there a bit more to it than that considering the empennage and fuselage profiles.

 

[thepetrostate]

Not too bad of a deal .. but there is no way in hell I'd give them this money:

If they wouldn't let me pay as I went I'd find another school that would...as most...will.

Interesting that you say that, a few months ago, that is how they offered training but the overall cost was about $9,000+ for the same.

I'm wondering if they have experienced significant drop out before they collect $5,000. Hmmmmm.

 

[jesse]

The difference between a 172 and a DA-20? Two seats and instrument capability. The DA-20 is a little more fun and the 172 is a little more capable. Either will work fine for getting your private certificate. Transitioning from a 172 to a DA-20 or a DA-20 to a 172 will not be a huge deal.

If I was going on a really long cross-country I would most likely go with the 172. The weather capability is better (as I'm instrument rated) and if you have to get into it in the pouring rain you're not going to get the cockpit drenched like in the Diamond.

If I was going to go fly around the area yanking and banking I'd go with the DA-20, much more fun.

 

[thepetrostate]

The difference between a 172 and a DA-20? Two seats and instrument capability. The DA-20 is a little more fun and the 172 is a little more capable. Either will work fine for getting your private certificate. Transitioning from a 172 to a DA-20 or a DA-20 to a 172 will not be a huge deal.

If I was going on a really long cross-country I would most likely go with the 172. The weather capability is better (as I'm instrument rated) and if you have to get into it in the pouring rain you're not going to get the cockpit drenched like in the Diamond.

If I was going to go fly around the area yanking and banking I'd go with the DA-20, much more fun.

Thanks, Jesse, I trained in a 172, then moved on, then recently a few flights in the DA-20. My friend who is looking at this program, I really couldn't give him a fair idea of the ease of the direct transition to the Cessna.

True on the cockpit, been there, did that.

 

[gismo]

Those rates don't seem out of line but I suspect it will take more than the included 35 hours of flight time, possibly a lot more.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

A couple of things on this. I would assume that this is a Part 141 operation, as it only has 35 hours built into the program. Its is very, very unlikely that one can complete the course, as it is likely to take someone probably 50 hours or or more. Just keep that in mind when you start comparing the price quoted to actual time, you're going to have a big difference in cost. In reality, 141 training doesn't help you in the private certificate. In general, it just makes the whole program cost more, as typically the 141 environment will have higher costs, which are passed on as higher rental fees.

Secondly, that seems kind of a high price for a DA-20, and a very high price for a DA-40. Granted, it is Florida, but still seems kind of high. The DA-20 and DA-40 are fun to fly, but I'd probably try them out prior to flying them. At least sit in them, so you can tell if they are comfortable.

 

[thepetrostate]

Those rates don't seem out of line but I suspect it will take more than the included 35 hours of flight time, possibly a lot more.

And the second "ethics" shoe drops. Unless asked, the school does not give out that info. If asked, they provide data that "the usual student may take a few more hours" but nothing like a statistical data set extrapolated from real time training (which they have).

It's these little things that keep adding up that bother me (no DA-20s for rentals, 35+ hours, collecting large deposits and front end fees, etc) and this school is considered by many to be the elite school in the area.

I know they are hurting for students, who isn't these days, few I would imagine but........

 

[thepetrostate]

A couple of things on this. I would assume that this is a Part 141 operation, as it only has 35 hours built into the program. Its is very, very unlikely that one can complete the course, as it is likely to take someone probably 50 hours or or more. Just keep that in mind when you start comparing the price quoted to actual time, you're going to have a big difference in cost. In reality, 141 training doesn't help you in the private certificate. In general, it just makes the whole program cost more, as typically the 141 environment will have higher costs, which are passed on as higher rental fees.

Correct on all accounts.

Secondly, that seems kind of a high price for a DA-20, and a very high price for a DA-40. Granted, it is Florida, but still seems kind of high. The DA-20 and DA-40 are fun to fly, but I'd probably try them out prior to flying them. At least sit in them, so you can tell if they are comfortable.

A sit was offered, a demo flight was not, it was a pretty day and they weren't busy. I thought the prices were high as well but I don't actually know since no one else in the immediate area is offering DA-20/40s.

They get a lot of European young adults with fat pocket books many of which treat flying as a "get a license, I'm a pilot, look at me" mentality. Those bookings are down but this is "season" in SW Florida so they are trying to attract the snowbirds and foreigners IMO.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Does it really matter what you train in?

No...

 

[poadeleted20]

One thing that isn't clear from your post is whether that $130/hr rate is dual or solo -- that would make a big difference. Assuming it's solo, that doesn't seem like an unreasonable deal, as long as you recognize that few if any folks finish their PP-ASEL in a Part 141 program in the minimum times on which they based their course price. I'd ask them just what the average, low end, and high end completion times (both dual and solo) are in that program before making a decision on how good a deal this is.

As for the DA-20, it seems like a perfectly good training platform, but if cost is a major factor, you may find someone doing PP-ASEL training in a LSA for a good bit less than $130/hour.

 

[thepetrostate]

One thing that isn't clear from your post is whether that $130/hr rate is dual or solo -- that would make a big difference. Assuming it's solo, that doesn't seem like an unreasonable deal, as long as you recognize that few if any folks finish their PP-ASEL in a Part 141 program in the minimum times on which they based their course price. I'd ask them just what the average, low end, and high end completion times (both dual and solo) are in that program before making a decision on how good a deal this is.

As for the DA-20, it seems like a perfectly good training platform, but if cost is a major factor, you may find someone doing PP-ASEL training in a LSA for a good bit less than $130/hour.

You're right, I assumed solo but I don't know. I'm thinking a CFI with a 150/170 might train for more like $100 per hour but I haven't researched this option yet. Haven't thought about an LSA either.

The ultimate goal here is to not spend more than $10,000 in 2010. I am trying to find a way to optimize these dollars that is to get the proper training and the max amount of solo flying. Obviously, I don't want to see my buddy undertrained or for the training to artificially be scaled up in cost.

My business sense on this says to me with 9 DA-40s, this company is primarily in the rental business, that is where their capital has been spent. It would be in their interest to have you certificated ASAP. Training is temporary, renting is forever.

 

[gprellwitz]

The prices don't seem unreasonable to me. Never count on being able to get unspent monies back though.

 

[thepetrostate]

The prices don't seem unreasonable to me. Never count on being able to get unspent monies back though.

If they fold, won't the bankruptcy courts take care of unsecured creditors? :smile: Can't he sue and expect justice?

Gosh, maybe not. No forward payments, I hear you loud and clear.

 

[Dean]

If they fold, won't the bankruptcy courts take care of unsecured creditors? :smile: Can't he sue and expect justice?

Gosh, maybe not. No forward payments, I hear you loud and clear.

Just ask all the wantabe helicopter pilots that signed up with Silver States Helicopters. Learn from their misfortune, never pay up front, pay as you go or don't go at all!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Just ask all the wantabe helicopter pilots that signed up with Silver States Helicopters. Learn from their misfortune, never pay up front, pay as you go or don't go at all!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know that I'd say never pay up front. But don't pay for the whole thing up front. If you want to throw $1,000 at getting a block time deal, it might be worth it, to save some money. But, dropping $10,000 up front, no way.

 

[Dean]

I don't know that I'd say never pay up front. But don't pay for the whole thing up front. If you want to throw $1,000 at getting a block time deal, it might be worth it, to save some money. But, dropping $10,000 up front, no way.

I consider block time as "pay as you go" I would buy 10 hrs at a time and have it flown off within 5-7 days 10 max. I would never buy time that I knew I couldn't fly off with in that time frame.

 

[thepetrostate]

I consider block time as "pay as you go" I would buy 10 hrs at a time and have it flown off within 5-7 days 10 max. I would never buy time that I knew I couldn't fly off with in that time frame.

Block payments that you can pay off quickly, in advance, it the norm in my area and by quickly I mean within a month.

We have negotiated a $500 cash payment up front, no credit cards that can be surreptitiously charged based on some fine print or loophole in the contract or fraudulent behavior by the training school.

Once the $500 is liquidated, another $599 payment is made, etc.

At least that way, if the school folds, hopefully the full amount of exposure is $500 or less.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I consider block time as "pay as you go" I would buy 10 hrs at a time and have it flown off within 5-7 days 10 max. I would never buy time that I knew I couldn't fly off with in that time frame.

I'm willing to go out to about 30 days, if I'm doing block time training. And, never more than right at $1000. Only time I paid more than that at once was when I got my SES rating, and I paid upfront, but had everything done in 36 hours.