Cylinder question
- Thread starter murphey
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Tom-D
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Tom-D
yes ..
denverpilot
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This related to your rust/corrosion issue?
murphey
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Oh yeah.
It appears I may not have a working airplane until Christmas the way things are going. Thanksgiving at the earliest if I cave in.
Details Thursday if we're both at the meeting.
Tom-D
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I must have missed some thing, what's wrong with your aircraft?
denverpilot
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Not pointed at me, but I can probably summarize for Murph...
Same engine trouble since the engine swap months ago, I believe. One cylinder continues to overheat.
Other than that, I haven't heard the latest.
Other posts have hinted at reluctance by a certain well-known engine shop to make the problem right, and it's been months with people crawling all over this aircraft with checklists and hoops to jump through.
Don't have the whole story, but sure has taken the shop down a notch in my outsider/perhaps uninformed opinion, and it definitely lowered my already low expectations of how useful an engine "warranty" is in the aviation marketplace.
Agreed.......
Fitting the proper sized piston and grinding /file fitting the rings to a given cylinder is the best way to achive a perfect fit.... They needed to coat the assembly with Kosmoline or another preservative to prevent rust/corrosion during packaging though........ YMMV...
Tom-D
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Agreed.......
Fitting the proper sized piston and grinding /file fitting the rings to a given cylinder is the best way to achive a perfect fit.... They needed to coat the assembly with Kosmoline or another preservative to prevent rust/corrosion during packaging though........ YMMV...
Actually Ben they simply put break in lube on the piston and rings and package it very well in a sealed plastic sack, with a dehydrator bag and a stout box.
Everskyward
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Pretty sure from this post in another thread it's "cylinders" as in plural.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1012979&postcount=10
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
The Story...and I will not cite names because I don't believe in finger-pointing, at least not until much later.
July 2011 - prop strike. Insurance covers new prop, engine tear down & inspection. Adjuster mentioned with 2800 hours and only 2 overhauled cylinders perhaps I might want to cover the additional cost of an overhaul out of my pocket. Sure, why not. I shant list the costs, but I can rattle them off without even blinking or taking a breath.
Engine overhaul, new cylinders, new mags, new sparks (overhaul shop)
New prop
All new hoses, Lord mounts, etc (I got these local, cheaper than the shop)
Removal & installation labor
Late July 2011 - engine removed and shipped to nationally known and well-respected shop.
Mid-Sept - Engine returned, installed and run. Then the JPI engine monitor is installed. First flight I take the #3 cylinder hits 475 during takeoff. Whoops! Easiest & cheapest - swap the engine probes to see if one is faulty - nope.
I dutifully follow Lycoming, overhaul shop and cylinder manufacturer's instructions for oil and break-in. By NOT leaning as much as I have in the past, I'm able to keep #3 about 430 during takeoff. In cruise #3 is considerably cooler but there at times there can be up to 100 deg diff between #3 and the coolest cylinder.
Back & forth for the next few months, overhaul shop claims still in break-in period. Cylinder manufacturer has 15 items that could cause the problem, baffling being #2. Fix baffling (lots of holes in a 42 yo engine compartment) and no improvement.
All this time overhaul shop keeps insisting it's my fault for not flying often enough. Also keeps insisting I bring the airplane to the shop because no one else has the experience, knowledge & tools to properly diagnose & fix. I refuse, since there's a Authorized Service shop 15 min flight from where I base.
Fast forward to early Sept 2012 - after a 5.5 XC, I'm still having problems so I ask my local shop to find a borescope. Yup - there's rust on all 4 cylinders. 3 local shops & 4 A&Ps including one that does nothing but cylinders all agree there's something wrong with the cylinders. Hence I park it. #3 was removed and sent to the manufacturer for evaluation. They agree on the rust but because it's not a manufacturing defect, the warranty doesn't apply but they are willing (in the interest of excellent customer service) to hone, new rings, new seals, etc. for a very low and very reasonable price.
Contact overhaul shop. We didn't quite have a screaming match but it was close. Once again, it's entirely my fault for not flying enough. OK, so this was a slow year (economy and wicked winds in Colorado in the spring) and I only put 50 hours in 11 months. But I was offered the incredible discount price (not quite half) of their regular rate to re-do the cylinders. The incredible discount price is the going rate at a number of reputable cylinder shops, by the way. Such a deal.
Overhaul shop has not seen the cylinders, only borescope photos. Every A&P who has seen the cylinders in person agree there's something wrong. Physical evidence is that the rings rusted to the bore and then broke off when running the engine. After 50 hours the rust is still there and will continue to wear down the rings.
One theory and it's being reinforced by people here and other places, is that when the overhaul shop got the cylinder assembly, they did not check to make sure there were no problems, just pulled the piston a bit, dropped the cylinder in, put the pin in, and away we go. The 2 hr run in the test cell probably would not have indicated any problems. Which means either the cylinders were not packed correctly (lube and such) and no one noticed either at the manufacturer or the overhaul shop. But how to prove it? I dunno.
I have no complaints about the overhaul shop as a whole - the staff kept me informed during the actual process, I don't consider the 8 weeks to be unreasonable, and so on. My complaint at this point is the customer service person who has only one response to all things and "you don't fly enough, there's no problem with the cylinders and no one else except us can fix the problem that doesn't exist"
It has been "suggested" that perhaps I should investigate legal action. However I really don't think it's come to that yet. There are still other people at the overhaul shop to discuss this with. That will start later this week.
Regardless, I don't expect to be flying until after Turkey Day, if that soon. More like Christmas.
Sept & Oct has the most incredible flying weather all year in Colorado.
Clark1961
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Sept & Oct has the most incredible flying weather all year in Colorado.
Don't sweat it too much. The last two weekends have been more than just a tad bumpy...
Sorry to hear about all the cylinder problems. My advise is that a squeaky wheel gets greased and start telling all and sundry exactly who-what-when. As long as you play "good guy" the sales types will try to take advantage.
I suspect these types of problems are why some folks have overhaul shops rework all new cylinders...
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
But not until I've exhausted reasonable avenues and given the various parties the option to make it right. The next step takes the sales staff out of the loop and go directly to the owner of the shop. I fully intend to make a number of people even more unhappy than I am.
denverpilot
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Ugh. Sorry to hear you're dealing with all that.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
The Story...and I will not cite names because I don't believe in finger-pointing, at least not until much later.
July 2011 - prop strike. Insurance covers new prop, engine tear down & inspection. Adjuster mentioned with 2800 hours and only 2 overhauled cylinders perhaps I might want to cover the additional cost of an overhaul out of my pocket. Sure, why not. I shant list the costs, but I can rattle them off without even blinking or taking a breath.
Engine overhaul, new cylinders, new mags, new sparks (overhaul shop)
New prop
All new hoses, Lord mounts, etc (I got these local, cheaper than the shop)
Removal & installation labor
Late July 2011 - engine removed and shipped to nationally known and well-respected shop.
Mid-Sept - Engine returned, installed and run. Then the JPI engine monitor is installed. First flight I take the #3 cylinder hits 475 during takeoff. Whoops! Easiest & cheapest - swap the engine probes to see if one is faulty - nope.
I dutifully follow Lycoming, overhaul shop and cylinder manufacturer's instructions for oil and break-in. By NOT leaning as much as I have in the past, I'm able to keep #3 about 430 during takeoff. In cruise #3 is considerably cooler but there at times there can be up to 100 deg diff between #3 and the coolest cylinder.
Back & forth for the next few months, overhaul shop claims still in break-in period. Cylinder manufacturer has 15 items that could cause the problem, baffling being #2. Fix baffling (lots of holes in a 42 yo engine compartment) and no improvement.
All this time overhaul shop keeps insisting it's my fault for not flying often enough. Also keeps insisting I bring the airplane to the shop because no one else has the experience, knowledge & tools to properly diagnose & fix. I refuse, since there's a Authorized Service shop 15 min flight from where I base.
Fast forward to early Sept 2012 - after a 5.5 XC, I'm still having problems so I ask my local shop to find a borescope. Yup - there's rust on all 4 cylinders. 3 local shops & 4 A&Ps including one that does nothing but cylinders all agree there's something wrong with the cylinders. Hence I park it. #3 was removed and sent to the manufacturer for evaluation. They agree on the rust but because it's not a manufacturing defect, the warranty doesn't apply but they are willing (in the interest of excellent customer service) to hone, new rings, new seals, etc. for a very low and very reasonable price.
Contact overhaul shop. We didn't quite have a screaming match but it was close. Once again, it's entirely my fault for not flying enough. OK, so this was a slow year (economy and wicked winds in Colorado in the spring) and I only put 50 hours in 11 months. But I was offered the incredible discount price (not quite half) of their regular rate to re-do the cylinders. The incredible discount price is the going rate at a number of reputable cylinder shops, by the way. Such a deal.
Overhaul shop has not seen the cylinders, only borescope photos. Every A&P who has seen the cylinders in person agree there's something wrong. Physical evidence is that the rings rusted to the bore and then broke off when running the engine. After 50 hours the rust is still there and will continue to wear down the rings.
One theory and it's being reinforced by people here and other places, is that when the overhaul shop got the cylinder assembly, they did not check to make sure there were no problems, just pulled the piston a bit, dropped the cylinder in, put the pin in, and away we go. The 2 hr run in the test cell probably would not have indicated any problems. Which means either the cylinders were not packed correctly (lube and such) and no one noticed either at the manufacturer or the overhaul shop. But how to prove it? I dunno.
I have no complaints about the overhaul shop as a whole - the staff kept me informed during the actual process, I don't consider the 8 weeks to be unreasonable, and so on. My complaint at this point is the customer service person who has only one response to all things and "you don't fly enough, there's no problem with the cylinders and no one else except us can fix the problem that doesn't exist"
It has been "suggested" that perhaps I should investigate legal action. However I really don't think it's come to that yet. There are still other people at the overhaul shop to discuss this with. That will start later this week.
Regardless, I don't expect to be flying until after Turkey Day, if that soon. More like Christmas.
Sept & Oct has the most incredible flying weather all year in Colorado.
OMG my worst night mare,,
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ugh. Sorry to hear you're dealing with all that.
One of the advantages of being unemployed. Again. I have all this free time to make life miserable for some people.
denverpilot
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Wait, what? I thought you had a coding gig? Sheesh. Something else to catch up on Thursday I guess.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Nope, brand new. I even called the manufacturer to get the birth date on all 4. 2 built in July 11, the other 2 in Aug 11, installed Sep 11. Verified serial numbers, too.
Unless these cylinders were stored in salt water, in the Fla keys @ 90f for the few days before you installed them I can't believe surface rust is a vendor problem.
Tom-D
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Standard steel?
Brand name ?
Did any one inspect these cylinders before installation?
Did they rust before or after installation?
I don't understand why they would rust in that short time.
What oil did you run them on?
Tom-D
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