Current Synthetic Vision - Just how useful is it up close?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Lndwarrior, Jan 29, 2020.

  1. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,721
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Again, this guy gets it. HTAWS wouldn’t matter and they way civilians get and maintain their helo instrument ticket needs to be addressed.

     
  2. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,024
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Helo pilots get and maintain their instrument ticket the exact same way the fixed wing guys do. So I'm not sure why you feel that "they way civilians get and maintain their helo instrument ticket needs to be addressed"?
     
  3. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,721
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    They need actual. And a steady supply of actual before going into an operation like this. Just like he said, there are civilians getting instrument tickets in helicopters that aren’t certified to fly in IMC. And like he said, foggles ain’t gonna cut it. Imagine if this pilot has never flown into clouds and this was his first time. I’m sure he was completely panicked.

    Now, is the FAA going to require more stringent actual weather time? I doubt it. Are they going to require two pilots? I doubt it. And these accidents will continue to happen.
     
  4. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,311
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    If this makes enough waves they’ll “do something” though it will, as always,likely not address the actual issue.

    Besides between rubber stamping Boeing, circling their wagons around their employees who crash planes with kidnaped drunk minor children, FAA has a bit on their plate. Frankly I’d rather the FAA just sit on their hands and let the insurance industry, and aviation industry in general, handle these things. I think the public is loosing their trust in the FAA.
     
  5. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,721
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Well you can bet the corporate / charter lobbyists would be up in arms if more stringent rules are imposed.

    There’s a popular HAA commentator online named Randy Mains. He has passionately advocated IFR, twin engine, dual pilot helos across the board for HAA ops. He claims it would reduce accidents by 80 %. Not sure how he obtained that number but I do agree with him it would reduce accidents. But the financial reality is, that just isn’t going to happen. No way a non government funded HAA operation could afford such a thing. In in the accident in question, no way they could afford such a thing.
     
    James331 likes this.
  6. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,024
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Half the pilots in your operation have never flown in actual. Do you propose to remove them from the line and require them to go get actual time before they can resume line operations? Of course not. Your company has a robust training program on IIMC and actually supplements the training with additional sim time to keep your guys proficient.

    That's the solution, training and recurrency. Unfortunately many operators don't want to spend the money or time on the IIMC portion. They just want to put the hood on (or flip off the NVG's) and have the PIC do the IIMC drill, and call it good.

    Operators must develop a positive safety culture, coupled with a robust training program along with standardization policies that will give the PIC the tools (ADM, RM, SMS) to keep them out of the situation being discussed here.

    One item that has been introduced is the Risk Assessment Tool that has had a positive impact. It does have the PIC look at the elements of the flight and evaluate. Somehow I wouldn't be surprised that the operation in question didn't have an Risk Assessment.

    On the HAA side, IIMC events have decreased, and the ones that have happened usually result in a successful outcome. Those were with companies who had a strong safety culture and training program.
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  7. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,024
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    What Mains proposes would wipe out the community based EMS programs. But he is correct in that it would reduce accidents by 80% because about 80% of EMS HAA would disappear. :rolleyes:
     
    wheaties and Velocity173 like this.
  8. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,721
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Well, I won’t comment on HAA hiring practices or the RA but I‘m in agreement with you for the most part. Just to clear, I’m not advocating an all military background either. Obviously in the military we’ve got our IIMC accidents. I’m saying, it would be nice to address the fact that these training helos aren’t certified for IFR and pilots aren’t getting a solid base of actual weather. Like the pilot in the vid, I’m a believer in actual over simulated.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  9. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,311
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Some clients will only fly Argus level.

    Just let the market decide, vs crying to the government to “fix it” because we we all know how that turns out
     
  10. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,024
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Under the current conditions, finding a training helo that could be certified for IFR is going to be a problem.
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  11. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,835
    Location:
    Copperas Cove, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LNXGUY
    Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever get the chance to instruct IR candidates in a helicopter ever again... Nobody can afford it in a real aircraft and most of it is done in simulators.

    I don't live anywhere near a simulator center and I won't commute...
     
  12. N1120A

    N1120A Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,352
    Location:
    AG5B MYF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N1120A
    They were flying airport to airport on this. KSNA to KCMA. Class C to Class D with an LPV and a VOR approach, with an ILS right next door at KOXR. In fact, the helicopter in question flew airport to airport nearly all of the time.

    The guy was a CFII. Not just an instrument rated pilot. He almost certainly had the skill to fly an IFR helicopter flight through a 2000' fog layer.

    This was about policy.
     
  13. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,721
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Policy shouldn’t have affected his ability to fly an aircraft that easily has the capability to go IMC. Friend at work went IIMC two years ago with our VFR B407. Was in actual for about 20 minutes. Because of his experience, it’s was a complete nonevent.
     
    TCABM and Doc Holliday like this.
  14. N1120A

    N1120A Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,352
    Location:
    AG5B MYF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N1120A
    He was too low level for IMC cruise, and it appears his climb was an effort to fly out of the conditions, but the mountain was obscured.
     
  15. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,024
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Again, how many weather turn downs has this operation had that would warrant adding IFR to their 135 certificate? And this is simply not just adding a few words and making it good. The training manual must be changed, additional training, additional checks (135.293 and 135.297), OpSpec changes along with currency requirements. Then throw in the aircraft and it's requirements. This now becomes very expensive for the seldom charter.

    See above. And while he may have had ratings, was he actually current? In flying IFR currency matters.

    VFR Part 135 helicopter operators must have IIMC procedures trained and checked. Did this pilot do more than a couple of approaches required for annual training and checking?

    The PIC in question most likely went into overload saturation by letting himself get too deep in a deteriorating situation. Had some ADM and RM been applied a turn around before reaching the hilly terrain this may have been a non event.
     
  16. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,721
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Didn’t say he could cruise IMC at that altitude. Saying he had an aircraft that was more than capable of an IIMC recovery. It really should have been a nonevent. 1) Level the wings. 2) establish climb power 3) establish climb airspeed 4) once clear of obstacles squawk 7700 5) contact ATC request vectors VFR conditions or IAP.

    The operation being VFR and not having HTAWS aren’t all that important. It’s real world actual experience before he got the job and an aggressive IIMC training program that exceeds the Part 135.293 mins. Doesn’t sound like the pilot had any actual and I have no idea about their annual training. I’d still like to hear the NTSB report on his IFR training. How much actual? How much annual sim time? How much simulated IMC? Basically what I’m getting at is what his guest in the vid above is saying. Start at 21:35.
     
    Doc Holliday likes this.
  17. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,721
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    I’m also curious if the auto pilot was MELd. If it is an MEL item for the 76.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  18. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,024
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Velocity173 likes this.
  19. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,024
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Velocity173 and TCABM like this.
  20. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    5,284
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    To answer the OP:

    I find synthetic vision to be largely "just pretty" - but in IMC it does help with overall orientation, for me at least.. slight variation in pitch and roll are far less perceptible in an old school AI, you need a more intensive scan at your altitude, ball, turn coordinator, DG, etc., to keep things proper. With the big syn vis display all that information is infront of you, so your scan is more condensed and focused, and tiny pitch and roll changes are immediately noted. Having glideslope and localizer information overlayed on it also helps, all your info is in one place

    Trying to use it for mountains and scud running is referential at best, and deadly at worst
     
  21. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2017
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Longview, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    sshore
    I purchased and installed an Aspen ProMax unit in my airplane about a year ago (along with a GTN 750). I paid the extra money for the synthetic vision. As an old 56 year old pilot who has had nothing but round gauges, I was excited about getting a little piece of a glass cockpit. I turned the synthetic vision on and was impressed with the accurate picture, but I hated it when being used for actual hand flying in IMC. I have not turned the synthetic vision back on in many months - it just seemed confusing to use compared to the old blue on top / brown on the bottom AI standard picture that the Aspen gives you. Maybe if I had a full panel type of display (GX3) I would find it more useful.

    Do, however, put me in the camp of old pilots who never want to go back to round steam gauges. I fully embrace the glass panel concept.
     
  22. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,820
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    Everything you wrote is really about glass vs. steam gauge. It doesn't have to do with synthetic vision; turn it off and you'll see the same things you describe except that you won't see the cute little runway or the one bit of traffic in the background.

    By the way, I agree with your reasons for liking glass. I have no reservation about flying an old round dial airplane in IMC but given the choice between round dial and glass I'd default to the glass for the reasons you cited.
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  23. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    5,284
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    And you're totally right! Rereading my post I now notice that the actual syn vis part itself, with the cute little runway and other planes, was completely unnoticed. I guess that means it's not that useful up close! Now if you could dial up the progressive tax in it like Microsoft Flight Sim.. that would be a different story! lol

    I also agree on the round dials, steam is fine, I recently flew an ILS on one, ovc 600 (thin layer though, tops 1,900), and while fine, the glass is just so much better than darting your eyes from the localizer/glideslope in the top right, speed on top left, AI in middle, DG on bottom, altitude middle upper right, VS middle lower right, DME from way lower right, etc. There are a lot of opportunities to hone in one gauge while the others run amok

    PS, I think the issue with syn viz, is that it's missing the depth perception part of it.. maybe if they overlayed trees, buildings, etc., you could have that effect, but otherwise its value is limited without the depth perception
     
    SoCal RV Flyer and mondtster like this.
  24. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,660
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoCal RV Flyer
    But it's useful if you see big rocks and valleys. Aim for the valleys. :)
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  25. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,835
    Location:
    Copperas Cove, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LNXGUY