Culmination of all of your piloting skills

Jaybird180 said:
With disregard for the above said, what is the one drill (or skill) to practice that polishes the others? Some say pattern work, some say commercial manuevers.
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My vote is for the level slow roll and the Hammerhead as Dr. Bruce mentioned.
 
DavidWhite managed to put the airplane on the ground with the undercarriage beneath him. You'd have bellied it in, causing extensive major damage.

You seem quite flippant in making the suggestion to destroy the aircraft, when the gear was available.

There are times when leaving the gear up is the best course: a forced landing in a plowed field or soft terrain or water is usually best executed with the gear up.

A return to a hard surface runway, especially when the gear is able to be lowered, would be foolishly executed with the gear up.
 
DouglasBader said:
DavidWhite managed to put the airplane on the ground with the undercarriage beneath him. You'd have bellied it in, causing extensive major damage.

You seem quite flippant in making the suggestion to destroy the aircraft, when the gear was available.

There are times when leaving the gear up is the best course: a forced landing in a plowed field or soft terrain or water is usually best executed with the gear up.

A return to a hard surface runway, especially when the gear is able to be lowered, would be foolishly executed with the gear up.
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First, David did an excellent job. Major kudos to him for fast thinking and cool operation. Yes his hand got burned, but he didn't even realize the lever was hot until after he got out of the airplane.

Second, moving forward and thinking about the scenario in terms of "what would I do" I think Henning makes a good point. Were my cockpit filling with smoke, the only thing the airplane is good for is getting me to the ground without injury. That's it. The minute something goes wrong the airplane belongs to the insurance company, and I will do whatever I must to ensure a safe landing. My insurance company would like that as well, as they'd rather buy me another airplane than pay my widow for my crispy crittered corpse.

If the gear doesn't come down, and lowering it delays my landing by ever a couple seconds, screw the airplane. They can fix it. They can't fix a crispy crittered me. The most I'll ever pay for a wreck is my insurance deductible. The worst I could be hurt is way worse than that.
 
FlightSafety now teaches IMMEDIATE emergency descent/landing for smoke/fire, after the Swissair Flight 111 disaster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair_Flight_111

Had these pilots used the time they had to immediately get the jet on the ground, they might have escaped.

Rather, they referred to their checklist, found they were over landing weight, and started dumping fuel.

Save human life, to the detriment of the airplane. On the Falcon 50 the gear was lowered at speeds that probably would have ripped off the gear doors.
 
And then the pilot's emergency-muddled tiny mind might flash into Infomercial mode:

"BUT WAIT! You won't get to the runway any faster with the gear up, and you might be able to get the door open to escape if its not jambed by the gear up landing! Or if you can't get out by yourself, maybe the crash crew can fight the fire more quickly and get you out easier if the plane is on its gear rather than its belly! Call now, operators are waiting!"

The reason the Emer check lists don't recommend/specify one method over the other is that they can't possibly know all the variables.

steingar said:
First, David did an excellent job. Major kudos to him for fast thinking and cool operation. Yes his hand got burned, but he didn't even realize the lever was hot until after he got out of the airplane.

Second, moving forward and thinking about the scenario in terms of "what would I do" I think Henning makes a good point. Were my cockpit filling with smoke, the only thing the airplane is good for is getting me to the ground without injury. That's it. The minute something goes wrong the airplane belongs to the insurance company, and I will do whatever I must to ensure a safe landing. My insurance company would like that as well, as they'd rather buy me another airplane than pay my widow for my crispy crittered corpse.

If the gear doesn't come down, and lowering it delays my landing by ever a couple seconds, screw the airplane. They can fix it. They can't fix a crispy crittered me. The most I'll ever pay for a wreck is my insurance deductible. The worst I could be hurt is way worse than that.
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wabower said:
And then the pilot's emergency-muddled tiny mind might flash into Infomercial mode:

"BUT WAIT! You won't get to the runway any faster with the gear up, and you might be able to get the door open to escape if its not jambed by the gear up landing! Or if you can't get out by yourself, maybe the crash crew can fight the fire more quickly and get you out easier if the plane is on its gear rather than its belly! Call now, operators are waiting!"

The reason the Emer check lists don't recommend/specify one method over the other is that they can't possibly know all the variables.
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My door's jammed, I'll kick out a window. They're only plastic.
 
Which door? Requiring how much time? And then how much more to crawl through the opening? Which is quicker, head-first or feet-first? Can you step out of an open door more quickly than you can climb through a busted window? Is continued exposure to heat and flames high on your list of things you are trying to avoid?

The reason some airplanes are equipped with an axe is because windows are tougher than they look.

steingar said:
My door's jammed, I'll kick out a window. They're only plastic.
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wabower said:
Which door? Requiring how much time? And then how much more to crawl through the opening? Which is quicker, head-first or feet-first? Can you step out of an open door more quickly than you can climb through a busted window? Is continued exposure to heat and flames high on your list of things you are trying to avoid?

The reason some airplanes are equipped with an axe is because windows are tougher than they look.
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If my airplane is on fire, I'm certain I'll have sufficient adrenaline to kick out a plastic window. I doubt I'll waste much time trying to get my on fire self out either. If things are that bad I probably won't be able to do the emergency gear drop procedures anyway.

Besides, part of the emergency checklist in my airplane is you open the door before you land, so it can't get stuck.
 
What does it say about gear-up landings?

steingar said:
Besides, part of the emergency checklist in my airplane is you open the door before you land, so it can't get stuck.
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wabower said:
What does it say about gear-up landings?
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Nothing, since the gear in my aircraft doesn't retract. But even if the gear is down, structural damage from a crash can seal the door shut. I would imagine part of any emergency checklist is to open the door.
 
DouglasBader said:
DavidWhite managed to put the airplane on the ground with the undercarriage beneath him. You'd have bellied it in, causing extensive major damage.

You seem quite flippant in making the suggestion to destroy the aircraft, when the gear was available.

There are times when leaving the gear up is the best course: a forced landing in a plowed field or soft terrain or water is usually best executed with the gear up.

A return to a hard surface runway, especially when the gear is able to be lowered, would be foolishly executed with the gear up.
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Airplane on fire is going to be damaged way more than a controlled belly landing. Belly landings do not total planes, they typically do very little damage in fact. Burning yourself and causing yourself physical harm to prevent some damage on insured property (and as an Insurance adjuster I will always tell people "Forget the 'stuff' I can replace/fix that way cheaper than I can fix you) is extremely poor logic and reasoning. You never try to save the equipment, you let the equipment save you. When it's going wrong you figure out how to best sacrifice the machine to save injury, not the other way around. It's thinking like that that gets people killed all the time trying to stretch glides to save the plane when they could have made a survivable off airport landing.

The only reason to save the plane is to help it save your life, pumping the gear down is more likely to cause a problem than just bellying it in.

Nobody at all came out ahead by him putting the gear down. He got burned and introduced distraction and risk. Now my question is, since it had a fire, did it get totaled anyway? Usually any airplane that's had a fire is a total because of the T- degradation issues with the structure.
 
Henning, it turned out to be an O ring on the entry port hydraulic screen. It emptied the hydraulic reservoir all over the hot bits of the engine which caused the smoke - because there was dropping pressure in the system the hydraulic pump was running but there was no fluid. It got red hot and transferred the heat to the panel - the plane was flying a week later. I'm lucky there was enough residual fluid left to pump the gear down.
 
DavidWhite said:
Henning, it turned out to be an O ring on the entry port hydraulic screen. It emptied the hydraulic reservoir all over the hot bits of the engine which caused the smoke - because there was dropping pressure in the system the hydraulic pump was running but there was no fluid. It got red hot and transferred the heat to the panel - the plane was flying a week later. I'm lucky there was enough residual fluid left to pump the gear down.
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David, I do not want to criticize anything you did. But do keep in mind, you didn't know where smoke was coming from at the time. Had it been from a less benign source, you could have been in even greater danger than you were.
 
steingar said:
David, I do not want to criticize anything you did. But do keep in mind, you didn't know where smoke was coming from at the time. Had it been from a less benign source, you could have been in even greater danger than you were.
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The smoke came and went pretty fast - I'm not sure if its because I opened all the windows and doors but from declaring to landing was 7 minutes and I only had noticeable smoke for 3. If I had still had smoke I wouldn't have messed with the gear and bellied it in.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Admittedly, I don't like pattern work. I don't care much for airwork either, but I am fond of steep turns, slips and a stall or few. I really like to go places, get out do stuff then go home. I smile and sleep well when I do that.

With disregard for the above said, what is the one drill (or skill) to practice that polishes the others? Some say pattern work, some say commercial manuevers.

PoA, what say you?

Please also explain why.
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For VFR, I'd have to say slow flight. You are on the edge, and your challenge is to make everything smooth and graceful.

For IFR, flying the ILS. I love it when I can get the needles stuck in the center. It rarely happens for more than a few moments, but I would love to have no movement for three minutes, so that any pilot or CFII sitting next to me feels the nervous urge to tap the instrument (or check the circuit breakers)!
 
Airplane on fire is going to be damaged way more than a controlled belly landing. Belly landings do not total planes, they typically do very little damage in fact. Burning yourself and causing yourself physical harm to prevent some damage on insured property (and as an Insurance adjuster I will always tell people "Forget the 'stuff' I can replace/fix that way cheaper than I can fix you) is extremely poor logic and reasoning. You never try to save the equipment, you let the equipment save you. When it's going wrong you figure out how to best sacrifice the machine to save injury, not the other way around. It's thinking like that that gets people killed all the time trying to stretch glides to save the plane when they could have made a survivable off airport landing.
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You sound like you're guessing, there. Your observations are based on experience? Ever landed an airplane on fire? I have.

DavidWhite landed safely without damaging the aircraft and was flying again shortly thereafter. You made assumptions and issued counsel based on guesswork.

On fire, and your first reaction is to forget lowering the gear, just belly it in? In what real world emergency have you applied this game plan?
 
DouglasBader said:
You sound like you're guessing, there. Your observations are based on experience? Ever landed an airplane on fire? I have.

DavidWhite landed safely without damaging the aircraft and was flying again shortly thereafter. You made assumptions and issued counsel based on guesswork.

On fire, and your first reaction is to forget lowering the gear, just belly it in? In what real world emergency have you applied this game plan?
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I have agreed your previous posts in this thread. This one, not so much. Most pilots have NOT experienced a serious emergency. Hopefully they have thought through how they would react in a real emergency. What they do in a real one depends on how much they have thought about it. The problem with Hennings position is only that he is generalizing his own decision process. It may, in fact be the best choice for his airplane his flying style. Not necessarily the best for someone flying a turbo Mooney high for example when the gear might help get down more quickly.

The problem with discussions on the aviation boards is that pilots connect dots from their own experience and then pour concrete over technique. Always use full flaps, never slip on base to final turn, always fly a pattern as if your engine will quit, ...
 
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I don't paint with a single brush, and didn't. There are times when leaving the gear up is the best choice. A forced water landing is one such choice. Landing in a plowed field is another; extended gear is just as likely to cause more structural damage or invert the aircraft on the forced landing.

One may elect during a forced landing to put the fuselage between trees, and allow the wings to absorb the impact; the trees may remove the wings and take the fuel away from the occupants of the aircraft.

Conversely, if making a forced landing on a hard surface such as a road or runway or parking lot, leaving the gear up is often counterproductive, and far less safe.
 
DavidWhite said:
Henning, it turned out to be an O ring on the entry port hydraulic screen. It emptied the hydraulic reservoir all over the hot bits of the engine which caused the smoke - because there was dropping pressure in the system the hydraulic pump was running but there was no fluid. It got red hot and transferred the heat to the panel - the plane was flying a week later. I'm lucky there was enough residual fluid left to pump the gear down.
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I thought you had a fire. How the heck did the gear pump handle get hot enough to burn you?
 
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