CSEL Written Question- Feedback Solicited

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Mooney Fan, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    I have a real problem with this question. I have my endorsement from Gleim and will take the written this Friday. Scoring consistently 90 or above. First time I have seen the question below. I realize an airborne VOR check must be within 6 degrees accuracy of radial selected. However, this question as I read it also ask status of the TO/FROM indicator. Only one answer has that status listed. The other part of the answer of a TO indication when OBS centered on 0 degrees when due south (180 degrees) is an accurate statement.

    Why am I wrapped around the axle here? :confused:


    Question: 4 When the CDI needle is centered during an airborne VOR check, the omnibearing selector and the TO/FROM indicator should read

    [​IMG]A. 0° TO, only if you are due south of the VOR.
    Answer (A) is incorrect.
    The airborne check is performed over points designated by the FAA or over specific landmarks, not only due south of the VOR.

    B. within 4° of the selected radial.

    C. within 6° of the selected radial.
     
  2. airheadpenguin

    airheadpenguin Pre-takeoff checklist

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    When you're doing an airborn check its either using a VOT, meaning you have a ground reference and a radial or 2 VORs tuned to the same NAVAID that must be within 4 degrees of eachother
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  3. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    I think we have a bit of confusion amongst Gleim's answer....

    Copying from the ASA Test Prep book...

    4378. When the CDI needle is centered during an airborne VOR check, the omni-bearing selector and the OBS indicator should read
    A— within 4° of the selected radial.
    B— within 6° of the selected radial.
    C— 0° TO, only if you are due south of the VOR.​

    upload_2019-1-28_10-33-21.png


    And then the explanation says

    If no check signal or point is available while in flight, select a VOR radial that lies along the centerline of an established VOR airway and maneuver the aircraft directly over a prominent ground point. Note the VOR bearing indicated by the receiver. The maximum permissible variation between the published radial and the indicated bearing is ±6°. (PLT507) — AIM ¶1-1-4​
     
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  4. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    Thanks. I agree with the degree tolerance, but what about the and part, the status of the TO/FROM indicator? I think I'm going down a rabbit hole
     
  5. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    I have also found the test prep vendors to be pretty responsive when customers query them about a particular question....

    A few (such as Sheppard) will take your phone call.

    So you might make contact with Gleim to see if you can't talk to one of their instructors to review the question.
     
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  6. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    If you are doing an airborne VOR check due south of the VOR, then the CDI could be centered with the OBS anywhere between 354 and 006.
     
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  7. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    Yea, I sent an inquiry before griping here lol
     
  8. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    If the question had not asked about the TO/FROM indicator I would agree with 6 degrees. They ask this question another way sometimes with just what is the acceptable error with no mention of TO/FOM indicator status
     
  9. dreyna14

    dreyna14 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The checkpoint is on a specific radial so if the OBS is set to that radial then it will produce a FROM indication. The question isn't asking about the indication because it's more implicit than anything.
     
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  10. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    Agreed. Another one I like is the question about what weather would you expect to encounter during a flight. They split hairs on weather that is 'likely' vs 'probable' or likely vs predicted
     
  11. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    The question is asking about a VOR check to see if you know the proper tolerances. It's not asking how a VOR works in general, which is the only thing (a) answers.
     
  12. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    @Mooney Fan ... I'll bet you a donut, cup off coffee, and THREE flying stories that this question doesn't appear on your exam.
     
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  13. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    I'm just have a problem how 6 degrees answers the question of the TO/FROM indicator status. Yea, I'm that guy when they say, 'don't be that guy' ;)

    Anal retentive
     
  14. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    You're probably right. Though if it is asked, I surely won't hose it up again
     
  15. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    You can also do an airborne check using a single VOR without a VOT...see @AggieMike88 ‘s post below yours.
     
  16. airheadpenguin

    airheadpenguin Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You're right I forgot about that part of the chart supplement
     
  17. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Correct answer is C. It doesn't have to read 0º because you're allowed the 6-degree tolerance on an airborne check.

    Side note: While I'm OK with this particular question, just realize that FAA written exams really do suck when it comes to actually testing your knowledge, and about 2% of the questions will be complete BS. I had a question on my private written that I got wrong, I showed it to my CFI and he got it wrong, we showed it to the DPE and HE got it wrong! But, our "wrong" answers were all the same. The DPE actually offered to run that one up the food chain for me, but I declined because I got a 97% anyway.

    But, I've seen this sort of thing on all of the writtens I've taken (private, instrument, commercial, and ATP). Thankfully, I've seen more of them when I'm doing the practice tests than the actual ones, but there are always a few where the answer really ****es me off because (for example) there's two answers listed that are both technically correct, I chose one of them because I had a reason why it was more technically correct, but got it wrong because they chose the other one as "more correct" because of a different reason.

    But, if you know your stuff, those questions won't matter. Yeah, it annoys me that I've never gotten 100% on a written, but I've also never gotten as low as 90%. So, just be aware that you won't get 100%, at least one wrong answer will **** you off, and move on. Passing is a binary thing. 70% is as good as 100%, and 69% is as bad as 0%. Annoying, but that's how it works.

    That's not what a VOT is. A VOT broadcasts the 360º radial in all directions. You're talking about a VOR checkpoint. There are some on the ground (frequently at airports with an on-field VOR) and some in the air. I've never used an airborne checkpoint, but the 4º/6º tolerances are still in effect regardless of which you use.
     
  18. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    As Kent said, there remain some question answer pairs, especially on the questions that require calculation, that have their answers all jangled and mangled. One in the instructor exam has you calculating a navigation question where one part of the answer is correct (course), the the second part is wrong (speed).

    Fortunately the Sheppard Air prep has this flagged and points you to read the explanation to know which answer to select so it is scored correctly.

    Over the years, the occurrence of this has gone down, but they are still there.

    Only remedy available to us is to study thoroughly with a quality test prep vendor and be aware of these landmines.
     
  19. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    "Due south" is a vague answer.
     
  20. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    Good responses everyone. There are multiple questions about accuracy of an airborne VOR check which the answer is +/- 6 degrees. Throwing the and To/From indicator was a distraction. I think @dreyna14 was spot on in that it is implicit
     
  21. DutchRoller

    DutchRoller Ejection Handle Pulled

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    What’s a CSEL written?
     
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  22. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    A isn't the most correct answer because you don't have to be due south to have 0* and TO. You can be within 6* of that. "Only" makes it wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  23. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    It's the written for people that think you also need to take a written for the multi-add on.
     
  24. DutchRoller

    DutchRoller Ejection Handle Pulled

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    And for seaplanes.
     
  25. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    That too, and you'd think I'd know that since I am SES, SEL, MEL!
     
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  26. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    I'm not aware of anyone thinking a written is required for a multi-rating. Wait, I think I did see that once on the red board
     
  27. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The comment was he wrote CSEL and that the written is just COMMERCIAL PILOT --AIRPLANE. No class qualification on Airplane. There is for Rotorcraft (Helicopter and Gyroplane are separate) as well as LTA (airship, gas balloon, hot air balloon).
     
  28. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    I realize that. There’s one in every crowd.
     
  29. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    One that gets the acronyms incorrect? Absolutely! :D
     
  30. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    You're welcome Captain Obvious ;)
     
  31. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    @Mooney Fan .... Jousting with the curmudgeons aside, how ya doing on the practice exams?
     
  32. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    I take about 3 a day and scoring 90% or above. Taking the written (CAX for the purist) this coming Friday
     
  33. DutchRoller

    DutchRoller Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Or in this case, at least two curmudgeons.