CSC DUATS, TRFs, and Notams

WeBeGone

WeBeGone

Filing Flight Plan
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Tacoma, Wa
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WeBeGone
I found it surprising last week when I checked CSC DUATS and found no mention of a TFR because President Obama was in town. I spoke to a briefer who confirmed the TFR.

Has anyone else had similar issues with CSC DUATS?
 
Got the NOTAMs about my home town today, despite the fact that the TFRs were last week. I don't know why the FAA bothers. It makes no difference whether I see their notices or not. Cheaper for them to just not send them, and more cost effective.
 
That's one of the few downsides I've found about using DUATS - it doesn't do anything to bring TFR's to your attention. You have to scroll all the way to the bottom of a briefing to the 'FDC NOTAMs' and read each one to see if it applies to your route.
 
Every time a missed TFR happened to me, it turned out to be in DUATS, but I missed it. The way DUATS presents TFR NOTAMs is nothing short of atrocious. Might as well use telnet to talk SQL to their database, for all the result. The list is barely formatted at all. So now either talk to briefer or, if I use DUATS, I always cross-check with tfr.faa.gov. It's a very handy website.
--
Pete
 
My point was that the TFR was NOWHERE to be found on CSC DUATS online. I not only checked all the FDC Notams.....I checked ALL Notams.

Had I not known the Pres. was in town, and had not called a briefer, I could have easily busted a TFR during a 30 minute spin around my rural area.

It was a good lesson about what to trust.
 
WeBeGone said:
My point was that the TFR was NOWHERE to be found on CSC DUATS online. I not only checked all the FDC Notams.....I checked ALL Notams.

Had I not known the Pres. was in town, and had not called a briefer, I could have easily busted a TFR during a 30 minute spin around my rural area.

It was a good lesson about what to trust.
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Ahhh.. I see.. I thought you meant that it wasn't easy to find.

Yeah, that's a whole 'nother can-o-worms! Good to know!
 
The whole NOTAM process drives me NUTS. You're supposed to review them but the various sources dump loads of worthless NOTAM nonsense burying the important items. Every single flight plan I file I get all of the NOTAMs about Disney World and Washington DC; both are 2 hours south/north of me and nowhere near my planned flight yet there is all of the NOTAMs.
 
Ooof, sorry. I was referring to the friendly E-mails I get from the FAA about which I was somewhat indignant. My problem was I knew the POTUS was going to be in town (you have to be pretty brain-dead to not know the POTUS is going to be in town) but the FAA didn't put out the NOTAM until a couple days before, even though I already knew his itinerary.

My 496 shows TFRs. Handy thing.
 
I have to say I find your claim hard to believe. My DUATS briefings include VIP TFRs in areas far from where I am flying. What do you mean by "I checked CSC DUATS?" Did you get a full briefing including FDC NOTAMS? Do you have a printout or saved data file of the DUATS briefing you received, including the information you provided for the flight?

Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
I have to say I find your claim hard to believe. My DUATS briefings include VIP TFRs in areas far from where I am flying. What do you mean by "I checked CSC DUATS?" Did you get a full briefing including FDC NOTAMS? Do you have a printout or saved data file of the DUATS briefing you received, including the information you provided for the flight?

Jon
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What you find hard to believe is YOUR problem, the world IS round Scooter. I am a CFII with plenty of students passed and I am well aware of what a full brief is and how to read it.
There was NO mention of it and that is why I brought it to the attention of the briefer. CSC DUATS is a contract company, as are the briefers you speak to.
I posted this as a FYI, you go right ahead and trust one source, and perhaps we will be reading about YOU.

I found an anomaly and passed it along.
 
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I haven't noticed missing TFR info in DUATS reports - but they are generally not an issue where I fly. I do always use TFRCheck for a quick overview of the situation - then look for an explanation of anything of interest in DUATS. Here is a link: http://www.tfrcheck.com/

Dave
 
WeBeGone said:
My point was that the TFR was NOWHERE to be found on CSC DUATS online. I not only checked all the FDC Notams.....I checked ALL Notams.

Had I not known the Pres. was in town, and had not called a briefer, I could have easily busted a TFR during a 30 minute spin around my rural area.
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Is "the TFR wasn't listed in my DUATS briefing" a valid excuse to the feds if you get busted?
 
shenanigans said:
Is "the TFR wasn't listed in my DUATS briefing" a valid excuse to the feds if you get busted?
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Interesting question.

If you secure a timely and appropriate briefing from an approved source (as DUATS is), preserving a record of having done so (your transaction number), and saving the text of the briefing, I have to believe that would have to carry some weight in the assessment of punishment, if not in the assessment of culpability.
 
shenanigans said:
Is "the TFR wasn't listed in my DUATS briefing" a valid excuse to the feds if you get busted?
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NO....I would have been screwed, if not escorted down, considering earlier in the summer a float plane busted a Presidential TFR, and F-16s were scrambled from Portland at Mach 1+ breaking windows all along the way (makes ya wonder why F-16s had to come from 150 miles away), I would have certainly been cited.
 
SCCutler said:
Interesting question.

If you secure a timely and appropriate briefing from an approved source (as DUATS is), preserving a record of having done so (your transaction number), and saving the text of the briefing, I have to believe that would have to carry some weight in the assessment of punishment, if not in the assessment of culpability.
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I sure hope you are right. It would seem that would make sense. The question could be " Did the pilot check ALL available information?"
 
shenanigans said:
Is "the TFR wasn't listed in my DUATS briefing" a valid excuse to the feds if you get busted?
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Since DUATS is a QICP briefing source, yes, it is. They can go back and recover your briefing and see that it wasn't there, and then you get a freebie (as long as you selected a standard briefing, not abbreviated or outlook). Same thing for telephone briefings from FSS -- they can listen to the tape. And yes, there are cases where that's happened and the pilot got a pass.

Of course, if you weren't listening on 121.5 and ate a Stinger, all that will do is provide your heirs grounds for a lawsuit. And if they go back and find it buried down in the FDC NOTAM section (or the briefer really did mention it) and you just missed it...:nonod::cryin:
 
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WeBeGone said:
What you find hard to believe is YOUR problem, the world IS round Scooter. I am a CFII with plenty of students passed and I am well aware of what a full brief is and how to read it.
There was NO mention of it and that is why I brought it to the attention of the briefer. CSC DUATS is a contract company, as are the briefers you speak to.
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There is no question that DUATS is not infallible. However, apparently, things like the one you reported happen so infrequently, and its presentation format is so poor, that it is only natural to suspect that you missed the NOTAM entry. The probability lies in that direction, and without screencaps we can't be sure anymore. But of course it's a useful reminder to cross-check, regardless.
-- Pete
 
zaitcev said:
There is no question that DUATS is not infallible. However, apparently, things like the one you reported happen so infrequently, and its presentation format is so poor, that it is only natural to suspect that you missed the NOTAM entry. The probability lies in that direction, and without screencaps we can't be sure anymore. But of course it's a useful reminder to cross-check, regardless.
-- Pete
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That's exactly why I re-read it no less than 3 times, furthermore if the departure airport is within the TFR, as it was, I don't care WHICH brief you get. ...It should have showed up.......period !!!

Engine failures are infrequent as well.....should you be aware of that issue???
 
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Before you go biting my head off...

You didn't point out in your initial post exactly what your DUATs briefing request was. There may have been some simple explanation as to why a TFR didn't show up. You didn't tell us where, when, or what you checked for.

No doubt you are the world's expert on reading briefings, so excuse me for questioning that. Just know that getting a single letter wrong on a location identifier would completely change the briefing output. Yeah, I know none of us ever make tipos.

Jon
 
Jon, if you wanted more detailed information you could have simply asked for it, rather than leading off with your self-pedistalizing quip about finding my claim hard to believe.

My home airfield is S44, which is not only under Seattle's Class Bravo, but under McChord AFB's airspace as well, so I tend to check things pretty close. When I just go pedaling around the area I get a 50 mile area briefing. Had I mis-entered the identifier, which I triple checked, I would not have recognized any of the associated reporting stations for METARs, TAFs, and NOTAMs. The previous week had shown a VIP TFR when Biden was in town, which was much smaller than this 30 mile TFR, using the same area brief.

We all make errors, including controllers and briefers, so my point is, don't take a CSC DUATS brief as gospel.

I am considering using a different DUAT service, anyone have any preferences?
 
WeBeGone said:
We all make errors, including controllers and briefers, so my point is, don't take a CSC DUATS brief as gospel.
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The FAA doesn't permit QICP-qualified briefing sources to make errors. Fact is, you're more likely to experience an error in a telephonic brief from FSS because then there are two humans involved, not just one. The various on-line systems (CSC DUATS, DTC DUAT, fltplan.com, etc) are all automated, and thus should all provide the same response every time. The only real difference between the QICP'd various on-line systems for preflight briefing purposes is presentation format, not content, so the choice between them is a matter of personal preference, not content.

As for the original question about a CSC DUATS briefing not including a TFR, I strongly suspect it really was there, but just missed by the person obtaining the briefing (there's a lot of stuff to wade through in the FDC NOTAMs portion). Also (assuming the OP didn't screw up the briefing request -- I've done that myself a time or two), since DUATS gets its data from the same source as FSS briefers, if it wasn't in DUATS, the briefer wouldn't have it, either.
 
When it comes to TFRs I don't mess around, I go straight to the source http://tfr.faa.gov. I do this, if I have internet access (and where can't you get internet nowadays?), before I use CSC DUATS, Golden Eagle or speaking to WXBRIEF. I have XM data on my Garmin 696 as well which displays TFRs very reliably.
 
Both Duats and Fltplan.com send you to the FAA site to check for TFR's. For work we have a private weather provider. They have missed TFR's before. So I check myself via the FAA site for all flights. Then I call FSS for a recheck over the phone. Its a lot of work to do this. However it sure is a lot less trouble than having to answer to busting a TFR.
 
ChrisS said:
When it comes to TFRs I don't mess around, I go straight to the source http://tfr.faa.gov. I do this, if I have internet access (and where can't you get internet nowadays?), before I use CSC DUATS, Golden Eagle or speaking to WXBRIEF. I have XM data on my Garmin 696 as well which displays TFRs very reliably.
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You mean the site that says at the bottom that the data may not be complete and that pilots should not use it for flight planning purposes?
 
gprellwitz said:
You mean the site that says at the bottom that the data may not be complete and that pilots should not use it for flight planning purposes?
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Yep, that's the one. I said BEFORE I use the rest. There have been occassions when Fire TFRs (which happen very frequently around where I fly most often) have appeared on TFR.FAA.GOV before appearing on CSC DUATS, etc. I try to use ALL the sources of TFR information at my disposal not just one.

When I'm away from home and a TFR disappears off my 696 I always double check with the nearest ATCC before I go near the area.
 
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That is exactly the point of my post. Had I not KNOWN a TFR should be there, I would have not scoured the NOTAMS over and over before and after talking with FSS.

I just chatted the the local FSDO and they claim an unprecedented number of pilots violated last Thursday's TFR, and DUATS may have been a factor.

They said they would get back to me, and when they do, I'll post an update.
 
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