Crosswind tailwheel advice needed..

Greg Bockelman said:
I always figured the tail had to come down eventually so why not start with it on the ground?
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I haven't flown every tailwheel airplane in the world at their x-wind limits, but I mention a reason in post #25. That being said, I generally prefer 3-pointers when possible.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I always figured the tail had to come down eventually so why not start with it on the ground?
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The shortest landings are done with the tail in the air. That dumps most of the lift and puts max weight on the mains for braking. The attitude is maintained with elevator to prevent noseover, and the tail is brought down as the airplane gets slow.

One must remember that the lift doesn't automatically disappear once the wheels touch down. Anytime there is airflow over the wings and the wings are at an AOA above the zero lift angle, there's lift. And there are very few airplanes--maybe none--that can reach stall angle in the three-point attitude; designers don't make airplanes that way because it means a loss of control at the stall. The nose or a wing can drop and things get ugly. The term "full-stall landing" is bogus.

If one is taught wheel landings and practices them, one learns to like them.
 
Dan Thomas said:
If one is taught wheel landings and practices them, one learns to like them.
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It seems like wheel landings often get discussed on the internet as if they are some sort of advanced level topic. This is tailwheel 101. As far as what one learns to "like", you are simply stating your own preference. Airplanes are wide ranging. Wheel landings are silly in some airplanes.
 
Doug Reid said:
Be very careful applying brakes with the tail off the ground during a wheel landing. With practice, this is ok, but some tailwheel ac have more brakes than they need. I fly a C195 with crosswind gear. I can set down 3 point in a crab and the wheels will track down the runway. This feature has helped me more than once.
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First time I taxied a 195 I couldn't figure out what was wrong.
 
Teaching cross wind landings can be challenging for instructors. 1st all we have always read about the perfect 3 point landing so it is often already set in a students head that they should touch all 3 wheels at the same time. This seem to even translate into tricycle gear airplanes. So one of the 1st things an instructor needs to do is unteach this 3 point landing thinking. To make things worse in tailwheel airplanes with no cross wind we often actually do 3 point landings. Then when we get a little cross wind we try to demonstrate and put the airplane into a nice side slip to compensate for the crosswind and just as we enter ground affect the wind gradient takes effect and we have less crosswind and have to level the wings to stop the airplane from drifting sideways and then touch down in in a 3 point (wings level) attitude, making the student think we are still trying for the 3 point touch down. It takes a pretty good, about 7kts, cross wind component or more to teach good crosswind technique where we land on the left or right main wheel 1st (tail wheel about the same time for a tail wheel, 3pt attitude landing) and then let the other main wheel settle onto the runway. Unfortunately these kinds conditions are often difficult to find during training. One tip is on your normal (non or low crosswind) landings try dropping the wing just a bit just before touch down. Not enough before touch down to start any sideways drift, but just enough to touch left or right main wheel 1st. This will often produce a much softer/smoother touchdown than trying to touch both main wheels at the same time plus teachs you that you are still flying the airplane as it touches down. This works in both Tricycle and tailwheel airplanes.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Doug Reid said:
... I fly a C195 with crosswind gear. I can set down 3 point in a crab and the wheels will track down the runway. This feature has helped me more than once.
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I remember as a kid hanging on KAGC’s fence watching a C195 with the gear taxi around the fogged in airport. I thought the plane was broken as it appeared and disappeared in the fog.


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Greg Bockelman said:
I always figured the tail had to come down eventually so why not start with it on the ground?
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I believe this as well, but it's like religion or politics... everyone has a different view. I think the sooner the tailwheel is on the ground in a crosswind landing, the better off I am. As you mention, the tail has to come down at some point and whether its at the beginning of the landing or after you wheel land and the tail loses lift, the tail is fully stalled. I never understood the logic of saying wheel landings are safer in crosswinds. But I digress...

I've helped a lot of tailwheel pilots get comfortable with crosswind landings with one simple practice. Keep the centerline in the center and your nose straight. If the centerline is moving right or left, you're going to find yourself in a jam very soon. If you keep the centerline in the center, you're automatically practicing crosswind technique and I've had pilots completely surprised when one main touches slightly before the other. The had no idea they had that wing lower, they were doing it automatically by keeping the centerline centered. I know, it sounds too simple, give it a try.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I believe this as well, but it's like religion or politics... everyone has a different view. I think the sooner the tailwheel is on the ground in a crosswind landing, the better off I am. As you mention, the tail has to come down at some point and whether its at the beginning of the landing or after you wheel land and the tail loses lift, the tail is fully stalled. I never understood the logic of saying wheel landings are safer in crosswinds. But I digress...

I've helped a lot of tailwheel pilots get comfortable with crosswind landings with one simple practice. Keep the centerline in the center and your nose straight. If the centerline is moving right or left, you're going to find yourself in a jam very soon. If you keep the centerline in the center, you're automatically practicing crosswind technique and I've had pilots completely surprised when one main touches slightly before the other. The had no idea they had that wing lower, they were doing it automatically by keeping the centerline centered. I know, it sounds too simple, give it a try.
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Sometimes the most simple, almost simple to point of stupidly obvious, is the best advice. What you just said hit home to me, as I know what has caused my regression is simple old fashioned overthinking it. My mind "overthunk" it till the point it skewed the proper technique and reasoning and the basic knowledge I already had... I guess maybe that is what Larry always meant when he told me that 6 words sums up TW technique: "Keep the pointy end that way" as he would point to the opposite end of runway...
 
It's also worth noting that every taildragger behaves differently. What's true for one, might make absolutely no sense for another. I generally lump light taildraggers together in one group of "generally handle the same" so any 2-seat not-super aerobatic taildragger. If you can handle a citabria/champ you can probably handle a cub or a 140 etc.

As you get heavier and more power i.e Maules and 180/185's and 190/195's the rules change a bit based on the plane. 180's are pretty bouncy in a 3 pt attitude, and super bouncy in a wheel attitude if you don't come in at a slow enough speed. Maules as stated above much prefer 3pt landings.

Heavier than these and all the rules go out the window, they're very specific in their handling and one certainly does not equate to another.

The point is just because you have a tailwheel endorsement does NOT mean you can fly any taildragger. Also the rules you learn in a 140/cub/citabria do not apply unilaterally to the group. They all have a personality... and I think that's why most of us love our taildraggers :).
 
Lowflynjack said:
... I've helped a lot of tailwheel pilots get comfortable with crosswind landings with one simple practice. Keep the centerline in the center and your nose straight. If the centerline is moving right or left, you're going to find yourself in a jam very soon. If you keep the centerline in the center, you're automatically practicing crosswind technique and I've had pilots completely surprised when one main touches slightly before the other. The had no idea they had that wing lower, they were doing it automatically by keeping the centerline centered. I know, it sounds too simple, give it a try.
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Agreed. I don’t instruct but that’s the gist of the whole thing for sure.

When I flew my Maule, I used to get into my sideslip as soon as I turned final.

Crabbing until short final is probably the easiest and most effective way to handle crosswinds but flying the entire final in a sideslip is great practice.

I flew an approach with a very strong 90 degree crosswind by doing the sideslip early. I did not have enough rudder to get the fuselage lined up so I came down final with full down wind rudder and as much aileron as needed. As the wind gradient took effect I could see the nose slowly coming into alignment but it didn’t get straight until flare height. I was ready to abort and return to an airport with better runway alignment but landed instead. Kudos from the tower, very satisfying!

Of course, being a Maule it was flown on with a main and tailwheel touchdown, and no flaps. Probably equivalent to a wheelie on most aircraft.


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farky said:
A friend of mine is a 30k+ hour tailwheel pilot and when I first got my citabria he had me go out with a direct crosswind and run down the length of the runway with the tail up and the upwind wheel on the ground, get to the end, circle around and do it the other way.....to get used to the attitude needed for strong crosswind landings. Made me a lot more comfortable.
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Did that happen to be Paul Santopiedro
 
The original Staggerwings would stall in an attitude with the nose lower than 3-point...apparently the theory was that you touch down in the mains, and downward inertia increases the AOA beyond where it can fly, so it sticks itself to the ground.
 
If you have a choice in a direct crosswind...............make the wind from the right. That way, if you have to add power (P factor) the right tuning and left turning tendencies cancel themselves out.
 
Huckster79 said:
...my subconscious is thinking with decent rudder deflection at touchdown my TW will be cocked that much too, so I want to set down with neutral rudder so TW is straight...
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Going back to the original post: Yes the tailwheel is cocked along with the rudder but just like the rudder it is cocked in a direction that will oppose what the crosswind component is trying to do to your tail. When it contacts the pavement it will be pulled out of alignment with the rudder and align with your ground track because it is coupled to the rudder with springs and while it will be exerting a force via the springs the force will still be in the direction you want it to counteract the force of the wind trying to turn you into it.

So the bottom line is you’re way overthinking it. Just put your feet and hands where they need to be to keep the nose pointed in the direction you want to go.
 
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