Crosswind landing Technique--right after touchdown

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Ben
Trying to refine these for the comm. Whatever method one uses down final, the actual landing is on the upwind wheel. At that exact moment in time, the yoke is into the wind to some degree, and the rudder is opposite so as to line up with the centerline. Next few seconds are where my questions lie:

1) How soon to lower the nose? I always lower it smoothly (only holding it off as long as possible IF this is a soft-field); but more promptly if it is gusty.

2) Once the nosewheel is down, how quickly should one change rudder pressure? (Assume a centering cam.) I was taught that the moment the nose is on the ground, "steer with the feet." Of course, nothing violent, and of course, increase yoke into the wind as airspeed slows. It becomes a fast taxi.

Thanks for helping me improve!

(I went out for several crosswind landings two days ago, and I really enjoyed the challenge of a strong but gusty, 90-degree crosswind.
 
I usually just throw the yoke full into the wind on touch down and steer with feet as you said. In a high wing I have found that you can get picked up again until you slow and get the flaps out.

Plus it's easier to just concentrate on rudder vs. both.
 
1) don't lower the nose, I fly tailwheel.
2) how soon to use rudder with the nose down? Just keep flying and use the feet to stay on centerline.

As to the comment about "full yoke into the wind"? You do that on my airplane and you'll pick the main wheel back up, the wing is still flying, especially when the tail goes down and the AOA increases. (tail wheel)

Key, just keep flying the airplane, even in taxi mode, all the way to the chocks.
Never stop flying until you are chained down.

Stall at 45 knts, wind 20G30, max wind capability published at 17 knts.
It's fine to land "into the wind" pr within wind limits, but you still need to taxi with a direct cross wind, and turning broadside the wind is the challenge. The wind pick up your tail and you could ding the prop.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I usually just throw the yoke full into the wind on touch down and steer with feet as you said. In a high wing I have found that you can get picked up again until you slow and get the flaps out.

Plus it's easier to just concentrate on rudder vs. both.
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I can see that. The only thing I wonder about is if, for example, you had only a half-yoke deflection on touchdown, a sudden full-left deflection might actually lift the left wing? I'm sure you don't mean that one should do it suddenly, though.
 
There are no hard and fast rules. It's a very fluid dynamic situation.

The answer is "as much as it takes but not too much"
 
jesse said:
There are no hard and fast rules. It's a very fluid dynamic situation.

The answer is "as much as it takes but not too much"
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Thanks, Jesse. And from experience, the DPEs will recognize when the applicant knows how to apply that.
 
spiderweb said:
I knew it was coming at some point! What is the price of tires these days?
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Well ... since you asked:
http://www.ercoupeparts.com/2010-11 Skyport Catalog.pdf

Somewhere between $62.50 and $276 each for an Ercoupe. How many hours of cross-wind landings do they endure? And how does that compare versus the cost of hours of rudder dancing practice in a plane that needs a rudder to fix the designer's mistakes? Beats me! :wink2:

Back to your questions - I don't know the answer to them either! About 10 days ago I was practicing crosswind landings in 90 degree 15 kt cross winds in a C-152 with my instructor and I simply did whatever seemed to be needed; I adjusted my rudder to whatever kept me moving down the runway.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Well ... since you asked:
http://www.ercoupeparts.com/2010-11 Skyport Catalog.pdf

Somewhere between $62.50 and $276 each for an Ercoupe. How many hours of cross-wind landings do they endure? And how does that compare versus the cost of hours of rudder dancing practice in a plane that needs a rudder to fix the designer's mistakes? Beats me! :wink2:

Back to your questions - I don't know the answer to them either! About 10 days ago I was practicing crosswind landings in 90 degree 15 kt cross winds in a C-152 with my instructor and I simply did whatever seemed to be needed; I adjusted my rudder to whatever kept me moving down the runway.
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What a cool catalog! How much time do you have in an Ercoupe?
 
spiderweb said:
What a cool catalog! How much time do you have in an Ercoupe?
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Well, I talked to fellow fueling one up at the local airport one day - does that count? (His had rudder pedals - the woos!) And I've sometimes flown the C-152 I train in as if it didn't have rudder pedals - does that count? :wink2: Otherwise no time.
 
spiderweb said:
I can see that. The only thing I wonder about is if, for example, you had only a half-yoke deflection on touchdown, a sudden full-left deflection might actually lift the left wing? I'm sure you don't mean that one should do it suddenly, though.
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Agreed, not suddenly. Assuming tricycle gear I want to smoothly have full aileron in when all three wheels are on the ground (If the wind didn't require it already). I mentioned it because in a high wing I got lazy a couple of times and didn't have full aileron on the rollout when a gust came up and high sided me. In some aircraft this doesn't matter.
 
You never stop flying the airplane. Ever.

Keep doing that, and you'll be fine. :)
 
At the risk of being repetitive (hey that's never stopped anyone, right?), add whatever rudder is needed to keep the nose down the centerline and enough aileron into the wind to keep the wings level. After the nose is down and I'm braking, I add back pressure to the elevator to help put some more weight on the wheels and help stop, assuming landing distance is a factor. If landing distance isn't a factor, I just lower the nose and let the plane slow on it's own with minimal braking.
 
spiderweb said:
I can see that. The only thing I wonder about is if, for example, you had only a half-yoke deflection on touchdown, a sudden full-left deflection might actually lift the left wing? I'm sure you don't mean that one should do it suddenly, though.
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I agree (except it would lift the right wing) - The technique I use and believe to be "correct" is to keep the same amount of pressure on the controls during the rollout - The same pressure will result in an increasing control deflection as the airplane slows down, and I'll hold it full to the side once that happens, but not before.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I agree (except it would lift the right wing) - The technique I use and believe to be "correct" is to keep the same amount of pressure on the controls during the rollout - The same pressure will result in an increasing control deflection as the airplane slows down, and I'll hold it full to the side once that happens, but not before.
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Constant pressure may work well but I generally apply full aileron into the wind as quickly as I can without lowering the upwind wing more than a foot or so. I want to keep that wing lower than the downwind one as soon and as long as I can to minimize the chance the wind will get under it. And an important side benefit is the extra drag from the down aileron helping to counteract the tail's tendency to weathercock the airplane.
 
gismo said:
Constant pressure may work well but I generally apply full aileron into the wind as quickly as I can without lowering the upwind wing more than a foot or so. I want to keep that wing lower than the downwind one as soon and as long as I can to minimize the chance the wind will get under it. And an important side benefit is the extra drag from the down aileron helping to counteract the tail's tendency to weathercock the airplane.
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Right -- once the upwind wheel is down, the ailerons are full into the wind, while rudder manages alignment.
 
dmccormack said:
Right -- once the upwind wheel is down, the ailerons are full into the wind, while rudder manages alignment.
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My ultimate pet peeve...I often watch first timers flying something Beech fail to do this rolling out no matter how much I warn them. They get bit in the a$$ big time......up there with riding the brakes on taxi/takeoff IMO as far as airmanship sins.
 
The Bonanza drivers are all on the cellphone trying to verify the rental car.....sigh.
 
taters said:
up there with riding the brakes on taxi/takeoff IMO as far as airmanship sins.
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That just drives me crazy. I see more experienced pilots doing it then students. Only thing I can figure is some instructor did them a great disservice and didn't stop that from day one.

"You're riding the brakes"
"If I don't we go too fast!"
"try pulling the throttle out"
 
taters said:
My ultimate pet peeve...I often watch first timers flying something Beech fail to do this rolling out no matter how much I warn them. They get bit in the a$$ big time.
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Just out of curiosity, why the Beech distinction?

Beech's are a heck of alot kinder to those lazy on the controls than a tailwheel in that respect.
 
Noticeably less people tackled his question about when to lower the nosewheel than to go to full aileron deflection I noticed, so I'll take a crack at it...

Soon enough to transition to the nose wheel handling the side-load before you run out of rudder. But not so soon you're unloading the wing and losing your aerodynamic braking or the wing is still fast enough that you can't get the aileron over and keep it from popping up.

In other words, it happens pretty quick. If you practice enough in one airplane type, eventually it seems to take longer as a process since you're adrenaline is down a bit after you've gotten used to it and know you're not going to kill yourself or bend the airplane. Then you can get a better feel for it, and you can time it better.

It's almost as hard to describe as Jesse's "Do what it takes, but no more." :idea:

Just keep flying it, including those rudder pedals... my feet aren't connected to my brain, but I survived (some) tailwheel training and glider flying. :thumbsup:

I guess it made my feet smarter, since they have no known attachment to the grey matter. :dunno:

The other recommendation is... 'cause we all get complacent about this one... be on a hair trigger to go around if runway length and conditions warrant. Shoving that power up will get you rudder authority "right now", and sometimes all it takes is a bounced touchdown right at a blow of a gust to start the sideways trip to the ditch and the only "out" you have is power, and going around.

After you get a little better at seeing how much rudder you get back with a good blip of power, sometimes you can salvage the landing with that. A small blip goes a long ways to tracking straight sometimes. ;)

Frankly though, if it's that gusty and you're that busy, you're trying too hard to get onto this particular runway. If you have a good reason, low fuel, whatever... okay.

And I know that there aren't always other airports with runways aligned with the wind within your fuel reach, but more often than not... there are.

If you give yourself a good scare like a bounce, and your adrenaline's up, you start to go into "fight" mode... think "flight" mode if you find yourself trying to force the aircraft on without a good reason. There's no shame in calling it quits and heading across town for a runway better aligned with the wind.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Just out of curiosity, why the Beech distinction?

Beech's are a heck of alot kinder to those lazy on the controls than a tailwheel in that respect.
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I'm not a tail-wheel guy and I can only imagine how much worse.

For some reason it just drives me more nuts ...in a Beech the deficiency shows up so fast, the plane hates it and the tires will quickly tell the story. The Bonanza's are just something I have flown and instructed in the most over the last few years(mostly new owners), so thats the distinction...but its annoying in any plane I fly when somebody pulls that crap.
 
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That's all because nobody showed these pilots how to taxi. Maybe they were shown once.

How many pilots have the stick away from the quartering tailwind routinely? Or into the headwind on taxi?

Rollout after all three are down is just high speed taxi. They might have been taught but they never learned.

Taters, you'd make a fine tailwheel pilot. Tailwheel pilots make that error only once.
 
bbchien said:
Rollout after all three are down is just high speed taxi. They might have been taught but they never learned.
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That's exactly how I always think about it. And especially with a C172 which is up and in ground effect at maybe 45 KIAS from a soft-field takeoff, you really have 1) taxi onto the runway, 2) fast taxi, 3) you're up, so crab into the wind!
 
bbchien said:
How many pilots have the stick away from the quartering tailwind routinely? Or into the headwind on taxi?
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I was taught that just recently, so it's unthinkable to me that CFIs would not teach cross-wind controls, but I can see complacency setting in. BTW, it takes a lot of practice to do automatically for me. I have to visualize the control surface movement relatively to the wind before applying the inputs even now, and therefore the input is delayed. This is a problem when Ground makes me gross runway 12-30 in KABQ, which has kinky taxiway intersections that require me to reorient the ship relatively to the wind several times in quick succession.

Also on topic, I received a great lesson on wind when a CH-47 landed about 50m away while I taxied. I do think I came close to being flipped over. In retrospect, I should have immediately turned nose into him and held full down elevator, instead of playing with the cross-wind deflections, because there was a moment when he crossed my wingtip and ailerons did exactly nothing.
 
jesse said:
That just drives me crazy. I see more experienced pilots doing it then students. Only thing I can figure is some instructor did them a great disservice and didn't stop that from day one.

"You're riding the brakes"
"If I don't we go too fast!"
"try pulling the throttle out"
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Exactly. A lot of people have been taught that they need to idle at a particular RPM (1000-1200). When I first got the Aztec, even with the throttles all the way back both engines would idle at about 1000-1200 RPM. That would wear the brakes out quickly. Of course, it also was fixed with a simple throttle adjustment. Took 2 or 3 tries to get it where I wanted.

On a twin especially (really any 6-cylinder), you'll end up going way too fast if you let the engines run a fast idle, and there's not any reason to.
 
bbchien said:
Tailwheel pilots make that error only once.
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Ain't that the truth!

I dang near ground looped a DC-3 during recurrent once because I got lazy on the ailerons. Sad thing was I had just made an absolutely beautiful x-wind landing......then during the rollout, I relaxed the aileron input and sure enough, that x-wind kicked my butt. The rudder in the DC-3 is pretty effective, but without the aileron in the wind, the wind was having its way with me.

Let's just say it was a bit humbling.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Exactly. A lot of people have been taught that they need to idle at a particular RPM (1000-1200).
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I think that's because some engine manuals prescribe 800-100 RPM idle to maintain oil flow?

:dunno:

(My Lycoming O-145 "Operator manual" so states -- so I only pull less after I'm sure things are warmed up and then only for short periods of time. IIRC the Cessna 205 and TR182RG manuals have similar language...).
 
bbchien said:
That's all because nobody showed these pilots how to taxi. Maybe they were shown once.

How many pilots have the stick away from the quartering tailwind routinely? Or into the headwind on taxi?

Rollout after all three are down is just high speed taxi. They might have been taught but they never learned.

~~~~~~~~~ Well, out here where Dave Taylor and I live you better learn it and fast because we nearly always have wind and if there isn't any just wait - there might be in a moment!
I made checklists for the 152 for my primary students adding things that aren't on the usual checklist... one of the things I added is something like:
"Notice wind direction anticipate control inputs for taxiing" then it's -
start taxi - test brakes

Once you nearly get flipped in a light plane you start to pay attention more :yesnod: and once you start making the adjustments at all times even when the wind is light it becomes automatic.

Oh and I have been told by a tailwheel instructor not to put the stick forward past neutral when the wind is from behind because you don't want to put yourself in the position for the plane to nose over. To just use opposite (fly away from) aileron....
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Jeanie said:
bbchien said:
I made checklists for the 152 for my primary students adding things that aren't on the usual checklist... one of the things I added is something like:
"Notice wind direction anticipate control inputs for taxiing" then it's -
start taxi \
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Good on you Jeanie, your students will benefit

I have always made it a habit to set the DG on pre-flight, that way when I get ATIS a visualization of the wind can be made on the instrument(or a HDG bug set on wind direction), kind of sticks for the whole flight.
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Yeah, I've noticed that if I just have them point to the wind and not worry about 320 or 070 or whatever the degrees are whether it's left or right - it's easier...
Just point to the wind w/ your hand, now what do you do w/ the controls?
and/or look at the grass next to the runway ... when/if there's grass to even see :)

We'll use the DG too once they get used to looking at it and understanding what all those numbers mean...........

It's been interesting to me, and has reminded me of when I was new, to see how the compass/DG spacial thing requires considerable effort to comprehend for some of them. Makes me think of Tristans analogy to making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
 
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Jeanie said:
Oh and I have been told by a tailwheel instructor not to put the stick forward past neutral when the wind is from behind because you don't want to put yourself in the position for the plane to nose over. To just use opposite (fly away from) aileron....
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That guy didn't understand what's going on.

The whole point of pushing the stick all the way forward is to stop yourself from getting your tail picked up causing you to nose over. Just look at the elevator position and visualize what the wind is doing. By shoving the stick forward you're removing much of the winds ability to lift the tail from behind.
 
jesse said:
That guy didn't understand what's going on.

The whole point of pushing the stick all the way forward is to stop yourself from getting your tail picked up causing you to nose over. Just look at the elevator position and visualize what the wind is doing. By shoving the stick forward you're removing much of the winds ability to lift the tail from behind.
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~~~~~ Yep, that's pretty much what I though too Jesse.
 
When on the ground I was told you determine the wind direction and climb into it or dive away from it... 30+ years of flying and I have not ever scratched a plane ......yet.:fcross:
 
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