Cross-country towards ATP

[sdflyer]

Hi everyone!

I'm trying to figure out a cross-country definition in for 61.159 and seems like can't find the answer . Does cross-country toward ATP require at least 50 nm between airports on not?

 

[taters]

airport to airport for 135
but for just the ATP rating I believe some 50nm arguments have been made. A 50 nm straight line distance but you dont have to land.
I never logged anything airport-to airport anyway

 

[elmetal]

This is when I realized using an electronic logbook will help me a TON.

Just airport to airport.

 

[sdflyer]

airport to airport

Thanks! And this is per Part 61.1 (b)(3)(i)?

 

[poadeleted20]

Here's the actual reg:

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B ) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

No landing elsewhere required as long as you got more than 50nm from the OPD (e.g., a nice long pipeline patrol or aerial survey flight will count even if you land back where you started), but you must get more than 50nm from the OPD no matter how many airports at which you land.

Don't confuse this with the baseline definition of XC:

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B )Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

...which is what you use for the 135 PIC requirement in 14 CFR 135.243.

 

[bobmrg]

Here's the actual reg:
No landing elsewhere required as long as you got more than 50nm from the OPD (e.g., a nice long pipeline patrol or aerial survey flight will count even if you land back where you started), but you must get more than 50nm from the OPD no matter how many airports at which you land.

Don't confuse this with the baseline definition of XC:
...which is what you use for the 135 PIC requirement in 14 CFR 135.243.

Since the OP asked specifically about ATP requirements, is it not true that 61.1(b)(3)(vii), which does not include the word "landing," was inserted to cover those military personnel who flew from Barksdale AFB to the Middle East and back without stopping? Everything up to (vi) includes that word. I don't think that your post #5 takes that into account.

Bob Gardner

 

[flyingcheesehead]

This is when I realized using an electronic logbook will help me a TON.

Yup. The XC I log is the >50nm with a landing variety. When I put the route in, the software will automatically add to the airport-to-airport variety. I don't expect to have any of the "go and return without ever landing" variety, so I'll just use the >50nm version for that.

Heh... I guess I don't need to worry about it any more. Just looked, I'm at 503.9 of the >50nm XC. (590.9 total XC.)

 

[BillTIZ]

Since the OP asked specifically about ATP requirements, is it not true that 61.1(b)(3)(vii), which does not include the word "landing," was inserted to cover those military personnel who flew from Barksdale AFB to the Middle East and back without stopping? Everything up to (vi) includes that word. I don't think that your post #5 takes that into account.

Bob Gardner

Well.. I think it was actually posted before the Barksdale to IRAQ Round Robin Extravaganza. But it was set up for those long SAC (Strategic Air Command) 15+ hr long missions that never touched ground except for KBAD. I've got a few of those and others under my belt.

 

[gprellwitz]

Also helpful for some of the 99's flying challenges we've participated in, where you need to overfly a couple of distant airports, but the only landing is back at the ODP. Also helpful for someone like Dick Rutan/Jeana Yeager on their round the world trip that otherwise wouldn't count as a cross country!

 

[poadeleted20]

Since the OP asked specifically about ATP requirements, is it not true that 61.1(b)(3)(vii), which does not include the word "landing," was inserted to cover those military personnel who flew from Barksdale AFB to the Middle East and back without stopping? Everything up to (vi) includes that word. I don't think that your post #5 takes that into account.

Since all the criteria (subsubparagraphs A-C) in subparagraphs (vi) and (vii) are the same, I don't see your point, i.e., there's no requirement for a landing in subparagraph (vi), either.

 

[Inverted]

Tha'ts what is so great about electronic logbooks. In my paper logbook I only log greater than 50nm even though it is not necessary anymore as I only need to take the ATP. But my electronic logbook breaks down XC time with regards to ATP, and certificates and ratings other than ATP.

 

[elmetal]

Tha'ts what is so great about electronic logbooks. In my paper logbook I only log greater than 50nm even though it is not necessary anymore as I only need to take the ATP. But my electronic logbook breaks down XC time with regards to ATP, and certificates and ratings other than ATP.

Seconded.

I started when I was still a student pilot because I'm a nerd and because I knew in the future I'd have to go and count atp crap.

That coupled with questions like time in type, etc etc I knew an electronic logbook was a must.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Seconded.

I started when I was still a student pilot because I'm a nerd and because I knew in the future I'd have to go and count atp crap.

Truthfully, I have maybe done a total of 3 flights (I can recall 2 specifically but there must have been a 3rd somewhere along the way) over the course of 20 years in which I went >50 NM without bothering to make a landing.

My e-log takes care of the point-to-point cross country but I never bothered with even trying to track the ATP-only variety.

 

[elmetal]

Truthfully, I have maybe done a total of 3 flights (I can recall 2 specifically but there must have been a 3rd somewhere along the way) over the course of 20 years in which I went >50 NM without bothering to make a landing.

My e-log takes care of the point-to-point cross country but I never bothered with even trying to track the ATP-only variety.

I've done a lot of that. I live down in south florida and I fly out of KFXE. A lot of times I have done sightseeing flights with families and friends and I go down the beach, down to about key largo (over the military space there) then back around and up to kfxe. it's a lot more than 50nm, but I never land.

That's only one example, but I have at least 20 hours of that which I guess isn't that much anyway.