Cross Country Solo to Ferry Airplane

Just weeks after my getting my PPL and probably not more than 10 additional hours more I bought a 182 MUCH quicker than I though I would...kicker was that it was in FL and I was in CA. Had my CFI lined up to do the treck cross country but he had to back out. After MUCH planning, research and input (a LOT from this board) a non aviation friend and I made the trip in 2.5 days with great success...I knew the risks and brought along an adventurous friend that I knew could handle any adverse situations should they arise. (he knew fully what he was getting into!)

To say it was a learning experience was an understatement. Gave me such a greater knowledge of the plane, ATC, trip planning, density altitude, diversion, en route weather, beater crew cars with missing mirrors, great local eats...and everything else that sounds great on paper and in the classroom but doesn't mean a rats a$$ till you ACTUALLY experience it!

I know other pilots with much more time locally that have never left their 50nm bubble and are afraid of different airspace so I think it is one of the BEST things a pilot can do and experience...at least that was the case for me. It was a GREAT confidence builder...and I lived!

Now...not having your cert yet...I agree and would take the opportunity to pay to bring your CFI along as dual training. Will give you a chance to apply some real world flying and adapt to the new plane for the check ride.
 
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As mentioned above, this is a 1957 Cessna, 'new to him'. Where has the plane been? What condition is it in? Who looked it over last?

Besides the 4 hour flight for a newer pilot, the plane is sorta unknown too. That may take careful watch on this longer flight.
 
Interesting. I ran into a couple guys at the airport last weekend. They were a student and an instructor. The student had bought a C-150 in Arkansas. They had flown down and were flying the C-150 back to Rochester, NY.

Take your CFI with you, Gitmo. The emotions will be much less and the trip a lot more fun. You will learn a lot.
 
Jeez, I did a 3.3 hour long solo cross-country, as a student. To Fresno. Everyone who has ever been there knows Fresno is 200 miles from anywhere. I had to cross moderate terrain.

This is only slightly longer, and no terrain.

You guys make it sound like it's significant.

The new airplane is an issue, but nothing that can't be handled with an hour checkout.
 
I think I have a bit of insight because I was probably the only student on the board who routinely got signed off on 270nm legs for work. This was way before I got my ppl.

your planning has to be very detailed and I suggest great weather briefings and lots of check points.

However, doing a xc like that in an airplane you have no real experience in would be my limiting factor, I'd want a cfi with me, even as Private Pilot right now I'd at least want a very thorough checkout.
 
If you can do that so that your instructor signs the flight planning endorsement that morning and you fly it back that afternoon, it is possible. However, the FAA and NTSB will not accept a 61.93(c)(2)(ii) endorsement made other than on the day of the flight.

That said, personally, based on my ferry flight experiences with newly purchased aircraft, I would not be comfortable having a Student Pilot do this solo -- too many surprises on such flights. For that reason, having your experienced commercial pilot friend do this with you along for the ride makes me feel a lot better.
 
MachFly said:
Why is that? Just curious.
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Read this case for the full answer, but the bottom line is:
This language, just as the section under which respondent is charged, means that the instructor must participate actively in the weather briefing at the time of the flight...

Respondent abdicated the important role the rules assign to him to supervise and assist Ms. Campbell in her analysis of the current and expected weather and her decision whether to fly her 3-leg, solo cross-country flight that day.
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In fact, upon further reflection, I'm not sure what I suggested above (plan the flight, get the endorsement, travel to the location of the plane, then make the flight) would meet the "at the time of the flight" standard in the first sentence quoted even if it meets the "that day" standard in the second sentence. Based on that, I'm thinking the only way to do this legally might be to arrange for a CFI to be available at the location of the plane being picked up to review the planning materials immediately prior to launch after the Student Pilot has received a new, current weather/NOTAM briefing and updated those materials appropriately.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Read this case for the full answer, but the bottom line is:
In fact, upon further reflection, I'm not sure what I suggested above (plan the flight, get the endorsement, travel to the location of the plane, then make the flight) would meet the "at the time of the flight" standard in the first sentence quoted even if it meets the "that day" standard in the second sentence. Based on that, I'm thinking the only way to do this legally might be to arrange for a CFI to be available at the location of the plane being picked up to review the planning materials immediately prior to launch after the Student Pilot has received a new, current weather/NOTAM briefing and updated those materials appropriately.
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So why can't the CFI sign off the student in advance, then right before the student takes off, the CFI can call the student on the phone and discuss the weather. The CFI should have all the available weather products regardless of his location.
 
Not that I'd necessarily recommend doing this as solo, but technically there is no reason this could not be done with the CFI remotely via a conference call. Sign off could be electronic or faxed...
 
gitmo234 said:
Okay before I get started let me say upfront that as of now I have opted against this option...

for the story, I bought a 1957 C172 up in Indiana. I need it ferried down to 58M, about a 4 hour flight due east. The 172 I flew yesterday had avionics issues so I cant take my checkride. After flying it however, my instructor (on his first flight with me) said "You dont have much to work on, lets get you scheduled for a check ride"

With the avionics issues the option (rather than waiting until the end of september) is to get my airplane delivered or ferry it back, familiarize and checkride in that.

I talked to my instructor and had a crazy idea, I asked if he would be totally against me creating a flight plan and if it was comprehensive enough, signing it off for me to cross country solo the bird back home.

He said he would think about it. Personally, I've kind of already decided I should familiarize first.. new airplane, older model with differences, etc.

I wanted to hear your (probably very polarized) opinions on the issue.

He quoted me roughly $500 + cost of return ticket for a delivery flight
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It would really be pushing it. Could you do it and can it be done legally? Yes, it could happen that way. Could it all go horribly wrong? Yes it could. Here's your best option, take your CFI with you. Bite the bullet, pay what it costs to take him along, it will be money very well spent and in the course of your future aircraft ownership on which I congratulate and wish you well, the expense won't even amount to a rounding error.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you can do that so that your instructor signs the flight planning endorsement that morning and you fly it back that afternoon, it is possible. However, the FAA and NTSB will not accept a 61.93(c)(2)(ii) endorsement made other than on the day of the flight.

That said, personally, based on my ferry flight experiences with newly purchased aircraft, I would not be comfortable having a Student Pilot do this solo -- too many surprises on such flights. For that reason, having your experienced commercial pilot friend do this with you along for the ride makes me feel a lot better.
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They seem to be fine with it as long as the instructor is in contact with the student. They don't have to be in the same room to be under supervision or to review the details of the flight plan. Email and SMS does very good to provide evidence of not only compliance but content as well, including a time stamp. I used to see it happen by telephone as well in the days before all that existed.
 
docmirror said:
I am not a CFI. That tells you all you need to know.

Create the flight plan. Fly it on a GPS simulator, or other method.

Bring to your CFI and sell it. The way I would sell it as 3 back to back XC trips of 1.3 hours each. Three legs, three stops, show your emergency fields, show your fuel and wind calcs carefully.
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If it was a known plane, yeah, plane is an unknown though, I don't think he'll find a CFI to sign off on it for a solo, too much liability and it does not pass the Prudent Person standard.
 
gitmo234 said:
I think im going to ask my instructor to fly along, I'll pay his costs.

$500 for delivery isnt bad, I have enough frequent flyer miles on a few airlines to get half dozen tickets for free.
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There you go, I should have kept reading lol.
 
MachFly said:
So why can't the CFI sign off the student in advance, then right before the student takes off, the CFI can call the student on the phone and discuss the weather. The CFI should have all the available weather products regardless of his location.
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Because the CFI cannot give the endorsement in advance of his/her "active participation" in the planning/briefing "at the time of flight", and the CFI and Student Pilot's logbooks will not be collocated at that time.
 
dans2992 said:
Not that I'd necessarily recommend doing this as solo, but technically there is no reason this could not be done with the CFI remotely via a conference call. Sign off could be electronic or faxed...
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I suppose this might be possible if the Student Pilot and CFI are part of an electronic signature/endorsement system approved per AC 120-78, but the FAA has never to my knowledge said that faxed Part 61 endorsements are "acceptable to the Administrator". If someone has something in writing to the contrary, I'd love to see it.
 
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Henning said:
They seem to be fine with it as long as the instructor is in contact with the student. They don't have to be in the same room to be under supervision or to review the details of the flight plan. Email and SMS does very good to provide evidence of not only compliance but content as well, including a time stamp. I used to see it happen by telephone as well in the days before all that existed.
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Who's "they"? Do you have something in writing from the FAA saying this is OK, or perhaps you can cite a legal case which overturns the Blair precedent quoted above? I certainly know of nothing from the FAA which says otherwise, or any case in which the FAA knew about and approved of such an action.
 
All in all, I'd be willing to bet that with a good flight plan review from my CFI, and weather, etc I'd more than likely be just fine, no real issues, just maybe a bit nervous.

However, in the game of aviation we are supposed to be shoot for a bit higher than "more than likely"
 
Ron Levy said:
I suppose this might be possible if the Student Pilot and CFI are part of an electronic signature/endorsement system approved per AC 120-78, but the FAA has never to my knowledge said that faxed Part 61 endorsements are "acceptable to the Administrator". If someone has something in writing to the contrary, I'd love to see it.
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From what I've seen, specific systems are not "approved" by AC 120-78. Systems must be "compliant" with this AC if used for these purposes, but the FAA does not "certify" systems.

Example: http://myflightbook.com/logbook/Public/CFISigs.aspx

Yes, I know.... We are far, far down the rabbit hole now. :)
 
Ron Levy said:
Who's "they"? Do you have something in writing from the FAA saying this is OK, or perhaps you can cite a legal case which overturns the Blair precedent quoted above? I certainly know of nothing from the FAA which says otherwise, or any case in which the FAA knew about and approved of such an action.
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For 2 years I worked and flew on a near daily basis with the LGB FSDO guys looking across the ramp at us. Rainbow Air, Foley's, Toms, the helicopter dude and Kelly... All under direct eye of the LGB FSDO. I'd eat morning break and lunch with them at the taco wagon that pulled up. They were always around and knew what was happening and were usually open to questions and discussions, none of these topics being particularly new. Students have been going on overnight solo cross countries, and even longer term, doing remote supervision for a long time. It's not "illegal". You can fax, text, or email an endorsement. It really doesn't change anything if you can review and assess their work and plan as well as the weather from where you are. Unless you can find me a specific disallowance, it is allowed.
 
Henning said:
For 2 years I worked and flew on a near daily basis with the LGB FSDO guys looking across the ramp at us. Rainbow Air, Foley's, Toms, the helicopter dude and Kelly... All under direct eye of the LGB FSDO. I'd eat morning break and lunch with them at the taco wagon that pulled up. They were always around and knew what was happening and were usually open to questions and discussions, none of these topics being particularly new. Students have been going on overnight solo cross countries, and even longer term, doing remote supervision for a long time. It's not "illegal". You can fax, text, or email an endorsement. It really doesn't change anything if you can review and assess their work and plan as well as the weather from where you are. Unless you can find me a specific disallowance, it is allowed.
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Well, Henning, when you get your CFI ticket, you go ahead and do that. But the regulation very clearly requires that the means be acceptable to the Administrator, rather than saying anything is OK unless the Administrator says it isn't.
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, Henning, when you get your CFI ticket, you go ahead and do that. But the regulation very clearly requires that the means be acceptable to the Administrator, rather than saying anything is OK unless the Administrator says it isn't.
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It's basic American law, we are an 'inclusive' law nation in that which is not specifically excluded is included. That's why insurance policies have 'exclusion' clauses not 'inclusion' clauses. If you review and endorse their cross country and all the pertinent factors, you have fulfilled the requirements of the FARs. Now show me where it says you have to do that in person.
 
I wouldn't be so sure Ron. Though I guess if there was an accident some FAA guy would question it. Signature by FAX is pretty much accepted by "common law" (ie, it's commonly done) would be the counter argument. Interesting issue though.

I'd say it's an open question.

Having said that, I wouldn't sign him off. Too risky.

Here's one for you. Can an instructor whose instruction certificate has expired, sign someone off for a rating?
 
coloradobluesky said:
I wouldn't be so sure Ron.
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Thing is, I'd have to be sure it's legal to do it, not sure it's not legal to not do it. Remember, as the endorsing instructor, it's my ticket at stake, and that's how I make a living.

Having said that, I wouldn't sign him off. Too risky.
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Yup -- you do get it.

Can an instructor whose instruction certificate has expired, sign someone off for a rating?
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No. From 61.1:
Authorized instructor means--
...
(ii) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with Sec. 61.197, when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate;
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Since it says "EXPIRES 31 MAY 2015" (or similar date) in the Limitations section on the back, that is a limitation, and you are no longer an "authorized instructor" the day after that date.
 
Henning said:
Where does it say you have to be in the same room? I thought you would post up an FAR reference.
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61.93(c)(2) says "(ii) For each cross-country flight, the authorized instructor who reviews the cross-country planning must make an endorsement in the person's logbook after reviewing that person's cross-country planning, as specified in paragraph (d) of this section." So, no pre-endorsement, and the endorsement must be made in the person's logbook after the review is complete. Further, 61.51 the logbook must be kept "in a manner acceptable to the Administrator".

Since the Student Pilot must have his/her logbook with him/her on the flight, if you're not collocated for the review, how can you do that unless you have a means "acceptable to the Administrator" to enter that endorsement in that Student Pilot's logbook at a distance? I know of nothing where the Administrator said a fax is acceptable as a means to endorse a Student Pilot's logbook for solo XC privileges. If you know of one, please show us the regulation, interpretation, or Advisory Circular where that's written.
 
Ron Levy said:
61.93(c)(2) says "(ii) For each cross-country flight, the authorized instructor who reviews the cross-country planning must make an endorsement in the person's logbook after reviewing that person's cross-country planning, as specified in paragraph (d) of this section." So, no pre-endorsement, and the endorsement must be made in the person's logbook after the review is complete. Further, 61.51 the logbook must be kept "in a manner acceptable to the Administrator".

Since the Student Pilot must have his/her logbook with him/her on the flight, if you're not collocated for the review, how can you do that unless you have a means "acceptable to the Administrator" to enter that endorsement in that Student Pilot's logbook at a distance? I know of nothing where the Administrator said a fax is acceptable as a means to endorse a Student Pilot's logbook for solo XC privileges. If you know of one, please show us the regulation, interpretation, or Advisory Circular where that's written.
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You can have your log book on your phone or iPad and the instructor can endorse it remotely. Now what's the problem?
 
Henning said:
You can have your log book on your phone or iPad and the instructor can endorse it remotely. Now what's the problem?
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I never like siding with Ron but I think you're losing this one Henning! :rofl:
 
timwinters said:
I never like siding with Ron but I think you're losing this one Henning! :rofl:
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Believe it, the remote endorsement scenario has been taking place since even before those capabilities existed. Please find a reference where any punitive action was taken over doing such.
 
Henning said:
You can have your log book on your phone or iPad and the instructor can endorse it remotely. Now what's the problem?
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That would be true if that electronic logbook is "acceptable to the Administrator," and I only know of one (Zululog) which actually has that approval -- and I think I addressed that possibility well back up this thread. There are others which say they are "compliant" with AC 120-78, but if you ask the developer, they'll tell you that only means the developer believes their product meet the requirements of that AC so you should easily be able to obtain approval from the FAA for its use to meet 61.51, not that their product is actually approved by the FAA.
 
Henning said:
Believe it, the remote endorsement scenario has been taking place since even before those capabilities existed. Please find a reference where any punitive action was taken over doing such.
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I'm sorry -- I thought the issue was whether it's legal, not whether anyone has been caught doing it. I don't have any information on the latter question, but I'm not going to risk my CFI ticket. When you get your CFI, you can do as you please, but I'm not going to change my recommendation to other instructors unless/until the FAA puts out something in writing saying it's OK.
 
Ron, in the case you cite, the administrator states that interpreting the reg to say that the instructor must be present at the airport on the day of the flight is "too narrow". They then expand on what must be covered in the briefing, never stating that it must occur in person.
 

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Ron Levy said:
That would be true if that electronic logbook is "acceptable to the Administrator," and I only know of one (Zululog) which actually has that approval -- and I think I addressed that possibility well back up this thread. There are others which say they are "compliant" with AC 120-78, but if you ask the developer, they'll tell you that only means the developer believes their product meet the requirements of that AC so you should easily be able to obtain approval from the FAA for its use to meet 61.51, not that their product is actually approved by the FAA.
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What is the process for obtaining this approval?
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm sorry -- I thought the issue was whether it's legal, not whether anyone has been caught doing it. I don't have any information on the latter question, but I'm not going to risk my CFI ticket. When you get your CFI, you can do as you please, but I'm not going to change my recommendation to other instructors unless/until the FAA puts out something in writing saying it's OK.
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I, I guarantee if it was not legal,moor as long as it has been happening, somewhere along the line it would have bitten a CFI and we would have case documentation of it. I can't believe that no student doing a remote endorsement XC ever pranged a plane. Besides, you could get your CFI on the phone with a local for a signature. There's always a way to get things done. The FAA isn't trying to make it burdensome, they are trying to assure that each XC gets the material reviewed and approved by the CFI before launch.
 
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Ianovic said:
Ron, in the case you cite, the administrator states that interpreting the reg to say that the instructor must be present at the airport on the day of the flight is "too narrow". They then expand on what must be covered in the briefing, never stating that it must occur in person.
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Lol, there you go. The problem was not that of location, but that the CFI did not review the weather at all. In fact the language backs my position Ron. "The Administrator does not embrace this argument."
 
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