Cross Country & Freezing Rain

Jhernandez04 said:
Well, I know one cessna 310 I'm not recommending to my friends.....


Shall I just sit in the corner and cry about my run in with freezing rain? Or just put the barrel in my mouth and pull the trigger?..... lighten up, thought we already covered the "lessons learned part"?
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No, you should accept the lesson learned and not consider yourself superior because you managed to survive something that many others have not because nature was kind to you in this instance.
 
Henning said:
No, you should accept the lesson learned and not consider yourself superior because you managed to survive something that many others have not because nature was kind to you in this instance.
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I've done all that. Why are you being a hardass? I can't make a joke in my own thread? Come on now dad, I've already admitted that I messed up, can't I laugh at myself now that I'm safe?
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I've done all that. Why are you being a hardass? I can't make a joke in my own thread? Come on now dad, I've already admitted that I messed up, can't I laugh at myself now that I'm safe?
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You weren't laughing at yourself, you were laughing at others from the way I read it, if I got it wrong, I apologize. I got caught in ice considerably more severe than your episode, I have never managed to laugh about it. Luckily I had a lot of excess power on tap.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Rule #1 for the VFR pilot, never let the clouds get between you and the ground.
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No.

Never let the clouds prevent you from getting to the ground VFR.

That is a substantially weaker statement.

If I can see a stable or dispersing edge to the clouds, or there are large and stable or growing gaps between the clouds, I'll go above it. There is very little risk of getting trapped in that.

Localized clouds are not at all rare. It's the expansive stable mist/undercast that's a problem.
 
MAKG1 said:
No.

Never let the clouds prevent you from getting to the ground VFR.

That is a substantially weaker statement.

If I can see a stable or dispersing edge to the clouds, or there are large and stable or growing gaps between the clouds, I'll go above it. There is very little risk of getting trapped in that.

Localized clouds are not at all rare. It's the expansive stable mist/undercast that's a problem.
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All ya gotta do is have more fuel than ya have clouds...
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Rule #1 for the VFR pilot, never let the clouds get between you and the ground.
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I am diligent about following those rules. When I say above clouds, Here is what I mean. This was en route to hangar hotel. Scattered layer. We just popped up for the sole purpose of getting above them and checking out the view. Then went back down. I wish the pictures were close to capturing how awesome it is up there.

Class E below 10,000 MSL 500/1000/2000 rule to the best of my judgement. I don't have the guts to get on top of a solid layer and hope for a hole. I don't ever want to have to confess ;)

1374782_10202632479200092_515415154_n.jpg
 
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Jhernandez04 said:
Check ride is Wednesday :)
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Excellent!!!!
Is it with the DPE we discussed?
If so, I think you will have fun and learn a lot.


One thing... If it is freezing on your checkride, don't fly through rain...
...Sorry man, I couldn't leave that out :goofy:

Seriously though Good Luck, Don't stress too much if you can avoid it, and get ready to learn.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am diligent about following those rules. When I say above clouds, Here is what I mean. This was en route to hangar hotel. Scattered layer. We just popped up for the sole purpose of getting above them and checking out the view. Then went back down. I wish the pictures were close to capturing how awesome it is up there.

Class E below 10,000 MSL 500/1000/2000 rule to the best of my judgement. I don't have the guts to get on top of a solid layer and hope for a hole. I don't ever want to have to confess ;)

1374782_10202632479200092_515415154_n.jpg
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As a vfr pilot, I would not do this without the following: >1500' ceilings, stable atmosphere, above 32F from cloud tops to ground level, vfr wx/SCT or better at my destination, on FF with ATC, onboard wx, within glide range of an airport, full fuel or enough to get to clear wx plus 30 min, synthetic vision, auto pilot, a plane/engine that I maintain, proficiency under the hood and a dual battery electrical system. We always fly over the top if it safe as we like the smooth ride, the efficiency, the free air conditioning, the radio reception, the view, the extra time in case of an engine failure.


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SixPapaCharlie said:
Now Ahem.... Go take your checkride man ;)
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Concur. With the additional "flying around the area" you have been doing, You should have the competence and confidence needed to make the DPE a happy person. It's time to tighten up to PTS standards and schedule the exam and the ride.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am diligent about following those rules. When I say above clouds, Here is what I mean. This was en route to hangar hotel. Scattered layer. We just popped up for the sole purpose of getting above them and checking out the view. Then went back down. I wish the pictures were close to capturing how awesome it is up there.

Class E below 10,000 MSL 500/1000/2000 rule to the best of my judgement. I don't have the guts to get on top of a solid layer and hope for a hole. I don't ever want to have to confess ;)

1374782_10202632479200092_515415154_n.jpg
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Yeah, you won't likely get in trouble flying above those and it sure is a lot smoother up there isn't it :wink2:
OTOH if the cloud cover gets up around 50% then the price of the best seat in the house is an instrument rating. Take care that you don't stay up in the smooth air too long.
 
Agreed. One must always have an "out."
 
When you get your IFR ticket you will get to see a lot of clouds form the top!!!
Flying on Top.jpg
 
Jaybird180 said:
Good thread!

OP could have used xx00 altitude VFR since he was on FF, with ATC coordination. I've done it!

Tim- does FZRA = SLD? Referring to post #32 earlier in the thread.
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I think FZRA implies a high chance of SLD in the clouds above the actual precip. But I don't think they're equivalent.

FZRA is a "no-go" for me.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I did a weight and balance and was well within limits.

I did not turn around because I was 12 minutes from the airport and there was no visable accumulation. Did I do the right thing?
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Weight of the ice is only one of the problems. The ice also changes the shape of your lifting surfaces. You end up with a heavier airplane, which you're aware of, but also less lift to keep it in the air and maneuvering.

I think others have also mentioned that independent of what anyone calls it (sleet, snow, freezing rain, fog, clouds, hail, or just rain), visible precipitaion while the OAT is near or below freezing = icing. The AIM section on icing mentions that dangerous icing can occur in less than 5 minutes.

Not trying to beat you down or anything here. I hope this is taken as the constructive commentary that you asked for.
 
glad your story had a happy ending. I'm still reading all the posts but I too fly a 235 (64 model) and she pulls hard so I'm usually using a little nose down trim on the climb out otherwise she wants to go vertical. :) We have the trim handle on the roof and we've had to adjust it a couple times a year - I haven't done the work obviously so not sure of the mechanical details but basically it'll start getting a little tough to turn and the net is that the trim surfaces aren't moving as much as you think they are. So, you think you're full trim - but your not because the mechanism is messed up. You might want to have yours looked at - it should be super easy to turn and smooth if working properly.

...now back to reading the posts...
 
Well that was quite the interesting read! Congratulations on not dying that day, and I would recommend a plane with a chute for you.
 
Insane said:
Well that was quite the interesting read! Congratulations on not dying that day, and I would recommend a plane with a chute for you.
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Glad you enjoyed it.

Now your sarcastic joke about a parachute can kiss my ass.
 
darthnomster said:
Weight of the ice is only one of the problems. The ice also changes the shape of your lifting surfaces. You end up with a heavier airplane, which you're aware of, but also less lift to keep it in the air and maneuvering.
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Not only that, but your iced wing is now an experimental airfoil, and you are the test pilot. Without icing, your critical angle of attack may be in the 15 degree range, but now it could be much less - you just don't know. My years ago mentor told me that if in icing, do not change the configuration of the flaps and land zero flaps if necessary. It is not a comfortable place to be.

-Skip
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Glad you enjoyed it.

Now your sarcastic joke about a parachute can kiss my GREEN ass.
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:lol:

It wasn't a joke though. You appear to be someone who is more willing to take risks. You got lucky this time so unless you modify your behavior the only other way to reduce your likelihood of death is to have a chute to pull. There is nothing wrong with it. Sometimes you just need to know your limitations and adjust accordingly. If not for yourself, then for your family.
 
Skip Miller said:
Not only that, but your iced wing is now an experimental airfoil, and you are the test pilot. Without icing, your critical angle of attack may be in the 15 degree range, but now it could be much less - you just don't know. My years ago mentor told me that if in icing, do not change the configuration of the flaps and land zero flaps if necessary. It is not a comfortable place to be.

-Skip
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Yeah, but that flaps thing actually has nothing to do with the wing. See earlier in the thread. It increases the angle of attack on the elevator and can make it stall. That's really, really, really bad close to the ground. It's excellent advice. Don't change anything you don't have to to land. I'd even suggest dropping the gear really early so you can yank it back up before whomping the ground if it does bad things.
 
Insane said:
:lol:

It wasn't a joke though. You appear to be someone who is more willing to take risks. You got lucky this time so unless you modify your behavior the only other way to reduce your likelihood of death is to have a chute to pull. There is nothing wrong with it. Sometimes you just need to know your limitations and adjust accordingly. If not for yourself, then for your family.
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Thanks but the only thing risky was not knowing a skewt chart, do you? Perhaps you should for your family.


While we to talking about that, how many student pilots do you know who can read a skewt? As far as I'm concerned I handled it just fine. Living proof I'd say, a little bit of luck but I was watching for the buildup and would of immediately put the plane doan upon seeing it.

Lot of backseat pilots that can kiss my green ass. Because you all are so perfect right?
 
Insane said:
:lol:

It wasn't a joke though. You appear to be someone who is more willing to take risks. You got lucky this time so unless you modify your behavior the only other way to reduce your likelihood of death is to have a chute to pull. There is nothing wrong with it. Sometimes you just need to know your limitations and adjust accordingly. If not for yourself, then for your family.
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I took more risks when I was a new pilot than I do now. I did know, however, that freezing rain was to be avoided at all costs, thanks to my ground school instructor.

As for parachutes, I have gotten the impression that they lead some people to increase their risk taking.
 
There are some risks that are worth taking. It's a risk to land in a slightly higher crosswind than you have before, or at a slightly more challenging airport like a windy ridge top. With those, you're risking damage to the airplane as you roll into the weeds, but little excess risk of sudden violent death.

But freezing rain is an excessive risk in a non-FIKI aircraft. That risks a full power face plant with the controls forcing you down. As in, the first responders will have trouble finding all the body parts.
 
MAKG1 said:
But freezing rain is an excessive risk in a non-FIKI aircraft. That risks a full power face plant with the controls forcing you down. As in, the first responders will have trouble finding all the body parts.
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It's a risk even in a FIKI airplane. The problem is, how do you know how much ice you can handle and how much you can't?

I'd say you're best off avoiding rain near or below freezing temperatures altogether.
 
TMetzinger said:
Hell... I've got 18 years of flying, a bunch of certificates, and the equivalent in coursework for a B.S. in meteorology.



I still hate it. I can correctly recite the theory, I can work through problems. I don't KNOW it the way I KNOW networking or music or driving.
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The best at it are the old farmers, and they don't even need a satellite photo. It'll drive you insane wondering how they know...
 
mondtster said:
It's a risk even in a FIKI airplane. The problem is, how do you know how much ice you can handle and how much you can't?

I'd say you're best off avoiding rain near or below freezing temperatures altogether.
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Not a risk, for many FIKI planes FZRA, or FZ anything is a straight no-go.

That's not something Id play with even in a Pilatus.

Glade everyone was ok.

As they say experince is the best teacher, albeit a rather unforgiving one.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I did not turn around because I was 12 minutes from the airport and there was no visable accumulation. Did I do the right thing?
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You had already experienced an unexplained power problem, and you were also having issues with maintaining level flight. Two major links in the accident chain just waiting to be entered in the NTSB report.

You're a lot more experienced at this than I am. And I know that it's easy to sit here and snipe at what you did from the safety and comfort of where we sit. But those two obvious major issues would have had me doing whatever it took to get out of what I had gotten myself in to.

You needed 24 miles of good weather between where you were and where you wanted to be. If conditions had worsened, we would have been reading about your flight in the newspapers.
 
So I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but the OP said he experimented with carb heat and other things. I was told that if you think you need carb heat you put it in, if the engine starts running like crap, wait it out for a while as it's probably the ice in the carb melting. Also, the residual heat in the muffler doesn't last very long after the engine stops firing correctly from carb ice, so you need to be quick. I wondered how long he left the carb heat on in obvious carb ice weather.
 
PaulS said:
So I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but the OP said he experimented with carb heat and other things. I was told that if you think you need carb heat you put it in, if the engine starts running like crap, wait it out for a while as it's probably the ice in the carb melting. Also, the residual heat in the muffler doesn't last very long after the engine stops firing correctly from carb ice, so you need to be quick. I wondered how long he left the carb heat on in obvious carb ice weather.
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That is a factor with carb heat, if you are in conditions that call for it, use it early and often. If I know I am at risk, I will give a clear here and there pre-emptily.
 
James331 said:
Not a risk, for many FIKI planes FZRA, or FZ anything is a straight no-go.

That's not something Id play with even in a Pilatus.

Glade everyone was ok.

As they say experince is the best teacher, albeit a rather unforgiving one.
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Is there any FIKI planes certified for flight in freezing rain? I once had an instructor explain to me how FIKI certification has been performed (I know there are multiple standards depending on when the plane was first certified) and what stood out to me was high miniscule the droplets have to be for the system to be able to handle.
 
Henning said:
Yep, several interesting things in that one. Interesting to wonder how much the failure of hitting that one switch contributed, and if it could have prevented this accident.
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I remember reading about this crash but did not recall that detail.

The pilot had what, 1500 feet to climb? He was at 17000 with tops at 18500?

Assuming the engine was putting out and he was flying something near cruise speed, a quick 1500 feet should have been like a zoom climb
 
dell30rb said:
I remember reading about this crash but did not recall that detail.

The pilot had what, 1500 feet to climb? He was at 17000 with tops at 18500?

Assuming the engine was putting out and he was flying something near cruise speed, a quick 1500 feet should have been like a zoom climb
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Yeah, I think they were trying to allude to, without directly inferring it due to lack of evidence one way or the other, that the plane had already got slow and dirtied up the bottom of the wing cruising along on altitude hold, and then when VS got selected for climb it got too slow and stalled. It wouldn't be the first time that scenario played out. That is one nice thing about the G700 autopilot, you can set a constant airspeed climb with them.
 
Did anyone else notice that after the airplane loses control in the animation, the controls are fully pro-spin with the ailerons, rudder and elevator to the stop. Must be FsX or Xplane
 
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