Cross-controlled flight

[Mtns2Skies]

previously, I posted about flying the Citabria and the need for crossed controls in turns. Some were skeptical but here is the best explanation I could find on it:
http://faaflighttest.us/Cross-Controlled.pdf

"CROSSWIND TURN
Upon reaching the turn to the
crosswind pattern leg, most training airplanes are still in a climb.
As the pilot rolls into a left crosswind turn, left rudder and aileron
are obviously required during
the roll. But once a stable turn
configuration is established to the
left, right (top) rudder—or at least
relaxed left rudder pressure—is
required to stay coordinated.
(Of course, this presumes a lefthand pattern. If you are turning to
fly a right-hand traffic pattern, the
rudder and aileron together yield a
coordinated roll in that direction.
But once the right turn is established, some right rudder pressure
must be maintained and left aileron
pressure—or at least relaxed right
aileron—introduced to stay coordinated and maintain the appropriate
bank angle.)
There are some important points
to make about coordinating your
turns at this position in the pattern."

The article also mentions a hypothesis for why this is not necessarily taught in the current flight training environment.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

What's wrong with just doing what it takes to keep the ball in the middle?

 

[Mtns2Skies]

What's wrong with just doing what it takes to keep the ball in the middle?

Nothing at all. Well I was originally taught in my primary flight training (I presume others were too) that the aileron and rudder should be connected, right aileron = right rudder. Only in slips and X-wind corrections should the controls be crossed. And if the ball is out of center just 'step on it'. I'm just now learning that the above is not always the case. That I should be cross-controlled more than I previously thought.

 

[Henning]

Top rudder in a climbing left turn is standard in every SE airplane unless the engine turns the other direction. It's required to counter the prop effects, you should have been taught this on your first lesson/first take off.

 

[Everskyward]

previously, I posted about flying the Citabria and the need for crossed controls in turns. Some were skeptical but here is the best explanation I could find on it:
http://faaflighttest.us/Cross-Controlled.pdf

"CROSSWIND TURN
Upon reaching the turn to the
crosswind pattern leg, most training airplanes are still in a climb.
As the pilot rolls into a left crosswind turn, left rudder and aileron
are obviously required during
the roll. But once a stable turn
configuration is established to the
left, right (top) rudder—or at least
relaxed left rudder pressure—is
required to stay coordinated.
(Of course, this presumes a lefthand pattern. If you are turning to
fly a right-hand traffic pattern, the
rudder and aileron together yield a
coordinated roll in that direction.
But once the right turn is established, some right rudder pressure
must be maintained and left aileron
pressure—or at least relaxed right
aileron—introduced to stay coordinated and maintain the appropriate
bank angle.)
There are some important points
to make about coordinating your
turns at this position in the pattern."

The article also mentions a hypothesis for why this is not necessarily taught in the current flight training environment.

If you are climbing straight ahead, the default position is using right rudder. If you start a right turn you will need more right rudder to go along with the right aileron. If you start a left turn you might just need less right rudder. Once you are in a stable climbing turn in either direction you would go back to the default position of neutral aileron and right rudder. Maybe you would call this cross-controlled but I don't. The ball still should be centered as Greg says.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

If you are climbing straight ahead, the default position is using right rudder. If you start a right turn you will need more right rudder to go along with the right aileron. If you start a left turn you might just need less right rudder. Once you are in a stable climbing turn in either direction you would go back to the default position of neutral aileron and right rudder. Maybe you would call this cross-controlled but I don't.

My current instructor in any level turn has me do rudder into the turn, aileron against, but not enough to cause a change in bank angle (after the bank angle is established). It keeps the ball centered and seems to do the trick in other planes too.

 

[Henning]

My current instructor in any level turn has me do rudder into the turn, aileron against, but not enough to cause a change in bank angle (after the bank angle is established). It keeps the ball centered and seems to do the trick in other planes too.

You shouldn't need aileron against, that's a sign of poor rigging.

 

[N5922S]

Top rudder in a climbing left turn is standard in every SE airplane unless the engine turns the other direction. It's required to counter the prop effects, you should have been taught this on your first lesson/first take off.

Henning nailed it again. Wish we could clone him.

 

[JHW]

What's wrong with just doing what it takes to keep the ball in the middle?

because such a simple answer doesn't allow for any chest thumping or one-upmanship

 

[jesse]

One of the things I always cover in high performance aircraft is the need for right rudder to maintain coordination in a high angle of attack full power climb. The amount of right rudder and the force in which they have to apply it generally takes people off guard.

Granted the same thing happens in most any airplane once the left turning tendencies are at force. My Flybaby is no exception to that. It's just a lot more obvious when you crank the horsepower up more and more.

 

[Everskyward]

My current instructor in any level turn has me do rudder into the turn, aileron against, but not enough to cause a change in bank angle (after the bank angle is established). It keeps the ball centered and seems to do the trick in other planes too.

Are you sure you are not just taking the aileron back to neutral? Maybe it seems like it's "against" to you since you are turning the yoke in the opposite direction of the turn to get it back to neutral. Once you are in a stable turn and you look at the yoke does it appear neutral?

 

[Henning]

Are you sure you are not just taking the aileron back to neutral? Maybe it seems like it's "against" to you since you are turning the yoke in the opposite direction of the turn to get it back to neutral. Once you are in a stable turn and you look at the yoke does it appear neutral?

As many poorly rigged planes I've flown that need rudder and opposite aileron to fly straight and level, I'm not so sure it's mistaken...

 

[Mtns2Skies]

As many poorly rigged planes I've flown that need rudder and opposite aileron to fly straight and level, I'm not so sure it's mistaken...

Entirely possible, the plane was wrecked earlier in its life and re-built in 2002. The only thing that makes me think it is not rigging is that it is even on either side.

No Mari I am not mistaken there is pressure against the turn, not much but it does exist. If you read the entire article I believe it explains in more detail. I am not talking about just left-turning tendencies.

Perhaps I am not explaining myself correctly. For example in a left straight and level turn there is left aileron and left rudder. As soon as the bank angle is established I move the stick just right of center to have some pressure. Without this outboard aileron the plane does not turn as effectively or quickly. As soon as it this control input is in place however the plane turns much quicker.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Are you sure you are not just taking the aileron back to neutral? Maybe it seems like it's "against" to you since you are turning the yoke in the opposite direction of the turn to get it back to neutral. Once you are in a stable turn and you look at the yoke does it appear neutral?

Anything over about 35 to 40 degrees of bank takes just a tad opposite aileron to counteract the over banking tendencies inherent to the airplane. At least that was the case in most all of the Cessnas I ever flew.

 

[Everskyward]

Anything over about 35 to 40 degrees of bank takes just a tad opposite aileron to counteract the over banking tendencies inherent to the airplane. At least that was the case in most all of the Cessnas I ever flew.

But I don't think this is what Austin is talking about since he mentioned it in relation to a crosswind turn in the pattern which presumably would be less bank than that.

 

[Everskyward]

If you read the entire article I believe it explains in more detail.

I read the article and I think that in some places he is defining "cross-controlled" in a different way than I am thinking about it. I don't consider the airplane to be cross-controlled if the ball is centered and you are in coordinated flight such as when you are starting a climbing left turn. You may physically have left aileron and right rudder but the ball is still centered. I guess you could call this "cross-controlled" but I never thought of it that way.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

You may physically have left aileron and right rudder but the ball is still centered. I guess you could call this "cross-controlled" but I never thought of it that way.

I call it "Doing whatever it takes to remain coordinated."

 

[Everskyward]

I call it "Doing whatever it takes to remain coordinated."

That's what I do too. I don't think I ever analyzed what I was doing like this.

 

[Graueradler]

What Mari & Greg said. Ball in the middle is coordinated. Ball not in the middle because of too much opposite rudder or not enough same direction rudder is cross controlled. Not determined by whether rudder position is actually physically beyond neutral or not.

 

[BillTIZ]

A cross controlled stall is a glider PTS maneuver.
A coordinated turn entry to about 15 degrees of bank, keep the yaw string straight (ball centered).
With the turn established, increase pitch to an attitude we know will result in a stall, normall about 5 degrees nose up, keep the yaw string straight. That requires proper application of rudder.
As speed decreases, increase aft stick to maintain pitch, keep the yaw string straight.
As speed decreases, a natural over banking tendency develops, now top stick (opposite aileron) is required to maintain proper bank angle, KEEP THE YAW STRING STRAIGHT!
At the stall, you will be cross controlled in a turn, left turn, left rudder, right aileron. In a left turning stall the rudder will be left, the stick will be in the back right corner.
KEEP THE YAW STRING STRAIGHT!!

Recover, stick forward and centered, opposite rudder to pickup the low wing.
Use aileron to pick up the low wing, and spin entry is imminent.
Plus the adverse yaw effect from the depressed aileron is fighting the rudder.

Students normally lose control of either pitch, stall does not occur, bank, they roll wings level, or rudder, the turn stops.
No P-factor, it's a glider.

Thermal turns, do require "top stick" and rudder into the turn to counter over banking tendencies. No p factor.

 

[Clark1961]

For example in a left straight and level turn

So what's this "left straight and level turn" thing?

 

[bqmassey]

If you've got left rudder and right aileron, you're cross-controlled.

If the ball is not in the center, you are uncoordinated.

They are not synonymous.

 

[poadeleted20]

What's wrong with just doing what it takes to keep the ball in the middle?

There's the ticket. Use aileron to achieve desired roll angle and then whatever rudder it takes to center the ball.

 

[RoscoeT]

The article also mentions a hypothesis for why this is not necessarily taught in the current flight training environment.

That may be a stretch. There's nothing in the article that any CFI worth their certificate wouldn't know and teach. This is basic stuff. But not all CFI's are necessarily worth their certificate. There may schools out there that don't teach stick and rudder skills, but to broad-brush the "current flight training environment" is a bit of a stretch. That being said, I don't like the way many aspects of flight training are going these days.

 

[Shepherd]

I fly a Tecnam that requires cross controls, and the amount differs between left and right turns.

Shep

 

[PilotAlan]

If you've got left rudder and right aileron, you're cross-controlled.

If the ball is not in the center, you are uncoordinated.

They are not synonymous.

This.
In a climbing left turn, the controls are often crossed, but the aircraft is coordinated.

There are often misconceptions that coordinated flight always requires same-side ailerons and rudder, forgetting left turning tendency in climb.
There are misconceptions that crossed controls are always uncoordinated, forgetting left turning tendency in a climb (or overbanking tendency in steep turns).

 

[MDeitch1976]

Other than the knowledge learned from the books, my instructors kept it really simple. "Step on the ball". I think the topic of "cross controlled" is what confuses things. I remember early on in my training one of my instructors didn't want me to use a side slip while landing. He stated that the airplane was "cross controlled". He was a new instructor at this time, and I do not think he was thinking properly yet. Probably still getting used to a student flying during a critical phase of flight. However, eventually we are required to know how to forward slip the airplane.

 

[Henning]

How were you doing cross wind landings without slipping?

 

[MDeitch1976]

How were you doing cross wind landings without slipping?

Like we do in Maryland, getting Crabby. Of course, before touchdown, it has to be done at some point before touchdown.

Some time back in my training I wrote about this experience with this particular flight instructor. Needless to say, I finished up with two really good instructors.

 

[nosehair]

I searched hard in the Flight Training Handbook for references to the term "cross-controlled", and only found the reference to cross-controlled stalls.

While the discussion never mentions the actual position of the controls, the inference is that "cross-controls" means "uncoordinated" - rudder against ailerons.

The fact that a normal climbing turn to the left may require holding some right rudder with left aileron to keep it coordinated is not, in my experience, "cross-controlled".

I think the OP is experiencing this fact for the first time, and sees it as being "cross-controlled" and getting a wide variety of personal interpretations.

I think "cross-controlled" means "uncoordinated", and the fact that sometimes the controls have to be not together to be coordinated is a basic fundamental understanding of the effects of the controls -
which has, for a long time now, been lost in the teaching, since it is not in the PTS as a testable maneuver.

It is only the most basic of fundamentals we should teach before beginning the PTS models of testing.

 

[Henning]

I searched hard in the Flight Training Handbook for references to the term "cross-controlled", and only found the reference to cross-controlled stalls.

While the discussion never mentions the actual position of the controls, the inference is that "cross-controls" means "uncoordinated" - rudder against ailerons.

The fact that a normal climbing turn to the left may require holding some right rudder with left aileron to keep it coordinated is not, in my experience, "cross-controlled".

I think the OP is experiencing this fact for the first time, and sees it as being "cross-controlled" and getting a wide variety of personal interpretations.

I think "cross-controlled" means "uncoordinated", and the fact that sometimes the controls have to be not together to be coordinated is a basic fundamental understanding of the effects of the controls -
which has, for a long time now, been lost in the teaching, since it is not in the PTS as a testable maneuver.

It is only the most basic of fundamentals we should teach before beginning the PTS models of testing.

The problem is that having rudder against aileron will not necessarily result in uncoordinated flight, eg climbing left turn.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Forget the ball, just RELAX and listen to what your spine is telling you, I've given a chit load of dual from the back of 7 series planes, I can tell when that ball isnt dead nuts on without needed to read a article or watch a little ball.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I can tell when that ball isnt dead nuts on without needed to read a article or watch a little ball.

Yeah, but can a new/relatively low time pilot do the same thing?

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Yeah, but can a new/relatively low time pilot do the same thing?

Well, when it is a ball-width or so out of center I cannot tell, I hope that experience/knowledge comes with time. When I screw up a turn or in a high AoA it is pretty easy to tell. I love the Citabria because it is teaching me so much I never knew about stick and rudder flying, to hopefully make me a better pilot overall.

I'm sorry about all of the confusion of terminology I think that is also where I have been lead astray in the past. The article just helped me sort through some things. Thank you for all of the replies and knowledge I do appreciate it!

 

[jesse]

Yeah, but can a new/relatively low time pilot do the same thing?

I think it's kind of like syncing the props when you first start flying multis. Perhaps you can tell but you're so overwhelmed its so low on your priority list you don't think of it right away. With experience and time your bandwidth grows and things like keeping coordinated becomes easier as you now have the time to notice the detail.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I think it's kind of like syncing the props when you first start flying multis. Perhaps you can tell but you're so overwhelmed its so low on your priority list you don't think of it right away. With experience and time your bandwidth grows and things like keeping coordinated becomes easier as you now have the time to notice the detail.

egg ZACT ly. That is precisely my point

 

[Silvaire]

...I've given a chit load of dual from the back of 7 series planes, I can tell when that ball isnt dead nuts on without needed to read a article or watch a little ball.

It's very evident from the rear seat but not so much from the front seat because you are sitting right on the pivot point. You'll notice the change in the slipstream noise before your butt tells you anything.

As for the "cross control" issue, this has been discussed before. It's known as adverse yaw and the Citabria has a bunch of it. The outside aileron moves down and in so doing creates a greater amount of drag than the inside aileron which moves up. This increased drag causes the airplane to want to turn the opposite direction so, once established in the bank you put in a touch of opposite aileron which creates the excess drag on the inside where it aids the turn. As a student you are analyzing everything, they are going to talk to you about p-factor, precession and all sorts of other anomalies but in the end you are just going to learn to fly the plane smoothly and won't be thinking much about the relative positions between the stick and rudder pedals.

All airplanes have adverse yaw but the Citabria has more than most. In something like a Cirrus or Columbia you probably wouldn't notice any at all.