Crewmember duty time under 135

[skyflyer8]

Hi all,

Subpart F of Part 135 specifies flight time limits and rest period requirements for pilots in 135 operations. In there it specifies limits to the amount of "commercial flying" a pilot can do in X amount of time.

If a flight instructor provides flight instruction for free in an aircraft that is not being paid for by either the flight instructor or the student (i.e. it is being relocated under part 91), is that "commercial flying?" Both pilots are receiving compensation for relocation of the airplane as part of normal job duties. (i.e. a daily rate.)

What I'm trying to figure out is whether the instructor has to worry about the number of hours flown as a CFI in the above situation.

I can't figure out a definitive answer. I am thinking the problem is that there is compensation involved with relocation of the airplane.

And hey while we're on this topic, I am assuming a normal flight school type flight lesson in a rented 172 with the instructor getting paid is "commercial flying," right?

*Thinks about the tricky definition of "for hire" once discussed on this board...

 

[RotorAndWing]

Hi all,

Subpart F of Part 135 specifies flight time limits and rest period requirements for pilots in 135 operations. In there it specifies limits to the amount of "commercial flying" a pilot can do in X amount of time.

If a flight instructor provides flight instruction for free in an aircraft that is not being paid for by either the flight instructor or the student (i.e. it is being relocated under part 91), is that "commercial flying?" Both pilots are receiving compensation for relocation of the airplane as part of normal job duties. (i.e. a daily rate.)

What I'm trying to figure out is whether the instructor has to worry about the number of hours flown as a CFI in the above situation.

I can't figure out a definitive answer. I am thinking the problem is that there is compensation involved with relocation of the airplane.

And hey while we're on this topic, I am assuming a normal flight school type flight lesson in a rented 172 with the instructor getting paid is "commercial flying," right?

*Thinks about the tricky definition of "for hire" once discussed on this board...

I would take the safe side and say yes. Under 121 I have advised my company in the past when I was doing flight instruction as not to bust any flight or duty times.

The gray area becomes when you are flying under Part 135 or 121 and the company wants you to reposition a plane "under part 91". Is it really a part 91 flight since you are still being dispatched, and being paid to fly the trip? For the record in the past I always refused the "part 91" dispatch.

 

[Ted]

I'd think the key part there as being that you're providing flight instruction. I've not read or heard anything in the regs that requires you to charge for flight instruction, but I have seen a limit on number of instruction hours (I believe it's 8 hours per 24 hour period?).

Seems to me like I'd want to factor that into my maximum duty times so as not to bust anything.

 

[tonycondon]

Kate, I had the same sort of questions last year when i started flying under 135. I asked here and the answer was murky. So I asked our POI during my checkride. His feeling was that if whatever I was doing required a commercial certificate, it was a commercial operation. that seemed fair to me. I think my questions specifically was about towing and instructing in the glider club, since i was not paid for either one of those activities.

So when is you checkride?

 

[JeffDG]

If you charge for instruction, you need to count it, otherwise, no...actually someone asked the question of the FAA recently, and they answered it:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...erpretations/data/interps/2009/Martindell.pdf

 

[skyflyer8]

If you charge for instruction, you need to count it, otherwise, no...actually someone asked the question of the FAA recently, and they answered it:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...erpretations/data/interps/2009/Martindell.pdf

That letter is exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Thanks.

Sounds like if there were pro-bono instruction going on outside 135 stuff, it wouldn't count as commercial flying. The minute you charge for the flight instruction, or the minute you do anything you're getting paid for as a pilot, that starts your "other commercial flying" clock.

 

[skyflyer8]

So when is you checkride?

Not anytime soon. I need to get more proficient at everything first before I'd even consider it. We're coming into the busier flying season for this company though, so we'll see what happens. Maybe I can get up more often.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If you charge for instruction, you need to count it, otherwise, no...actually someone asked the question of the FAA recently, and they answered it:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...erpretations/data/interps/2009/Martindell.pdf

Note that the term used is "compensation", not "charge" or "pay"...the FAA has been historically quite liberal with what constitutes "compensation" for a pilot, and has included things as ethereal as "good will" in its definition.

 

[poadeleted20]

Note that the term used is "compensation", not "charge" or "pay"...the FAA has been historically quite liberal with what constitutes "compensation" for a pilot, and has included things as ethereal as "good will" in its definition.

"Goodwill" only applies if there is a prior or current business relationship between the parties, and that's been tested in court. However, they do consider flight time creditable towards higher pilot certificates/ratings to be "compensation, and that could affect a CP, but if you're an ATP, there's nothing more towards which that flight time could be credited.