"Crazy" Pitts and Cub Landings

Personally, I am outraged that you would show such a video on this forum. Your reckless and dangerous demonstration should have you grounded permanently. For my own part, if I ever learn to fly real airplanes, I will show you how it should be done properly. :hairraise:

Thanks for the video, someday I'd like to learn to fly taildragers.

-John
 
steingar said:
In this case I was in the controlled airspace at my home airport. The tower had been notified of my intentions and reasoning, and had assured me I was the only traffic.
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Ah. Okay.

So many discussions here of uncontrolled fields, I made a bad assumption.

I'm totally cool with breaking eardrums to keep from barfing if it's tower-approved! ;)
 
RoscoeT said:
Never said that. But I think you are seriously mistaken. Just so you understand what you're saying...you're describing a glide path like this without extreme wind effects. A flying squirrel glides better than this. So in this case, your lowly Cherokee has achieved a much steeper slipping glide angle than is possible from the the most stub-winged, heavily loaded, huge constant-speed propped, huge ruddered aerobatic airplane available. Maybe you believe what you are saying, but I think you are seriously mistaken.

So, if this glide angle is possible, you should be able to demonstrate this on video by flying a final approach in level flight at normal 1000' AGL pattern altitude until you reach a point over the ground that is about 640' from the runway threshold. Then pull power, enter your super slip and you should be able to show the numbers staying still in your windscreen as you come down final. If you can show a Cherokee doing this without gaining airspeed, I will consider you to be the second coming of Christ. :D

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Honestly, I buy it. Hershey bar wing, flaps and a slip with low airspeed...

It ain't an airplane, it's a rock.
 
Skylane81E said:
Honestly, I buy it. Hershey bar wing, flaps and a slip with low airspeed...

It ain't an airplane, it's a rock.
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Compared to a Cessna maybe. There is a whole world of airplanes out there that make a Cherokee seem like a Schweizer. Talk is cheap. Cherokees are common as dirt. Somebody must be able to take some video of this type of descent! I've slipped a Cherokee and I've slipped airplanes that are much more rock-like than a Cherokee. Never been able to get anything to come close to 58 degree descent angle. I've tried. Think about the view of the runway from 1000' AGL, just 640' short of the threshold. Now descend right to the numbers. Don't actually have to land. Everybody's got these little digital cameras now. Somebody must be able to show this. Sorry, I'm done...I'll get off it. Somebody show me it can be done and I'll buy a Cherokee if only for the fun of doing a 58 degree slip to a landing. :D

MBDiagMan said:
I think they must have made a helicopter called a Cherokee.
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Ha! Doc, I think you are right. :)
 
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Flew an arrow that due to some "issues" partly disassembled in flight, added drag would not exceed that of a slip.

Half throttle was required to stay on glide slope at 90mph with only part flaps. I've done some of the commercial maneuvers in it. I say again, it's a rock if you want it to be. I'd offer to rent it to go do it but as the plane has had a three blade prop installed in the last few months it would be an invalid test as now it be even easier.
 
Skylane81E said:
Flew an arrow that due to some "issues" partly disassembled in flight, added drag would not exceed that of a slip.

Half throttle was required to stay on glide slope at 90mph with only part flaps. I've done some of the commercial maneuvers in it. I say again, it's a rock if you want it to be. I'd offer to rent it to go do it but as the plane has had a three blade prop installed in the last few months it would be an invalid test as now it be even easier.
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An Arrow is not a Cherokee, but even so, I look forward to your video. Heck, in the Arrow, you should be able to produce a perfectly vertical slipping descent...I tiny bit of headwind and you might even go backwards. ;)
 
whifferdill said:
I was recently told that there are folks at the flight school where I'm based who think I'm crazy...for doing such "extreme", "dangerous" landings such as this. In other words, a slipping turn down to the runway. Modern pilots...:stirpot: A couple T&G's earlier today in the Pitts and Cub. I'm probably lucky to be alive and writing this right now. :) Hope this video doesn't get me in trouble with the FAA for careless or reckless operation. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKeRsg3o15w&context=C4d8ea2aADvjVQa1PpcFNs7_geYKSta3dBCu_va5jYhagyc-R4pa0=
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You're dangerous, you..you..you renegade you! Whaddya think you're doing, giving folks crazy ideas that they can fly an airplane not the way the autopilot flies it? It's heresy I tellya, pure heresy!
 
RoscoeT said:
Compared to a Cessna maybe. There is a whole world of airplanes out there that make a Cherokee seem like a Schweizer. Talk is cheap. Cherokees are common as dirt. Somebody must be able to take some video of this type of descent! I've slipped a Cherokee and I've slipped airplanes that are much more rock-like than a Cherokee. Never been able to get anything to come close to 58 degree descent angle. I've tried. Think about the view of the runway from 1000' AGL, just 640' short of the threshold. Now descend right to the numbers. Don't actually have to land. Everybody's got these little digital cameras now. Somebody must be able to show this. Sorry, I'm done...I'll get off it. Somebody show me it can be done and I'll buy a Cherokee if only for the fun of doing a 58 degree slip to a landing. :D

Ha! Doc, I think you are right. :)
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Hmmm, I'll bet the price of the rental I get damned close while staying coordinated.
 
All this talk about descent angles got me curious about what my Pitts can do. Tried it yesterday. I got on google earth and measured an area on the ground with features that I could reference from the air. First I climbed to 1000' AGL and tried a power-off, full deflection slip, stabilized at my normal approach speed. Based on the point on the ground that remained stationary during my descent, I later measured that to be about 1600' horizontally from the point where I started the slip. Busting out the high school trig, this gave me a 32 degree descent angle. Descent rate was 3200 fpm.

I was also curious what the descent angle would be if I flew in a full stall, coordinated with the wings level. I climbed up to 2000' pulled power to idle, stalled the airplane over a point on the ground and held the stick on the aft stop and kept the wings level with rudder. Once I had lost 1000' I noted the point on the ground next to me. This was 2300' horizontally from where I started the descent. This works out to a 24 degree descent angle. I thought it would have been higher in this configuration.

Wind was negligible at the time I did this. I've also got a fixed pitch prop. CS prop would descend steeper. Even so, my Pitts slips much steeper than anything else I've flown. But I've never tried to extract max descent angle out some of the other types, so don't know what kind of numbers others will do. Pretty sure I can't beat the Pitts in the Cub, though. :) A near 60 degree descent angle would be very impressive to see.
 
Thanks for the data Whiffer. Before I read it, I was thinking that 30 degrees would be EXTREME. 32 is pretty close to my guess and I'm really surprised that it can be done that steep, but that sounds plausible. 58 degrees? Not so much.
 
Henning said:
Hmmm, I'll bet the price of the rental I get damned close while staying coordinated.
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I'll paypal $100 (should cover the flight) to anyone who can video a 58 degree stabilized descent (or pretty close) in a Cherokee without significant headwind. So this perspective here would be a right base-to-final from about a 45 degree angle to the threshold. At 58 degrees, you should come up well short of the runway from here. I can't wait to see video. Again, don't have to land, just show that the point 58 degrees below the horizon doesn't move in the windscreen. And no, Cirrus BRS deployment not allowed. ;)

15g3sis.jpg
 
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RoscoeT said:
I'll paypal $100 (should cover the flight) to anyone who can video a 58 degree stabilized descent (or pretty close) in a Cherokee without significant headwind. So this perspective here would be a right base-to-final from about a 45 degree angle to the threshold. At 58 degrees, you should come up well short of the runway from here. I can't wait to see video. Again, don't have to land, just show that the point 58 degrees below the horizon doesn't move in the windscreen. And no, Cirrus BRS deployment not allowed. ;)

15g3sis.jpg
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Well, if by "downwind" you mean "I could see the runway out there..." I don't think it requires such an extreme angle....
 
dmccormack said:
Well, if by "downwind" you mean "I could see the runway out there..." I don't think it requires such an extreme angle....
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steingar said:
If memory serves I came in at 8.5K feet and dropped down to 500 in the space of a 5K foot runway.
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8000' vertical drop in a 5000' horizontal distance = 58 degree descent angle. And he's adamant about it.
 
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dmccormack said:
Michael's a far better judge of small distances, methinks
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That's what I'm thinking. ;) But his insistence has gotten me all interested to see what I would consider one heck of a phenomenal aviating feat.
 
dmccormack said:
I probably have more PA time than you do, Professor.

If you think a Cherokee slips "just fine," you haven't slipped an airplane with real rudder authority.
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I have plenty of time in pretty much everything PA. From the PA-28 you're mumbling about, to the earlier PA types with the wheel on the tail. You make absolutely no sense.

A Cherokee does slip "just fine" and I've slipped plenty of airplanes. A slip in a Cherokee is useful and it has all the rudder authority it needs. There is no point in putting more on it...which is why they didn't.

So yes, I've flown around in tailwheels, I've flown around in nosewheels. I've slipped everything from lots of authority to hardly none. (The bigger issue sometimes isn't the rudder authority it's how much drag the fuselage will generate). I say the PA-28 series slips just fine as does the airplane you have.

You're way to obsessed with your ability to slip. There is nothing special about it. You might want to turn your 'tailwheel snob' dial down a few notches :)
 
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whifferdill said:
All this talk about descent angles got me curious about what my Pitts can do. Tried it yesterday. I got on google earth and measured an area on the ground with features that I could reference from the air. First I climbed to 1000' AGL and tried a power-off, full deflection slip, stabilized at my normal approach speed. Based on the point on the ground that remained stationary during my descent, I later measured that to be about 1600' horizontally from the point where I started the slip. Busting out the high school trig, this gave me a 32 degree descent angle. Descent rate was 3200 fpm.

I was also curious what the descent angle would be if I flew in a full stall, coordinated with the wings level. I climbed up to 2000' pulled power to idle, stalled the airplane over a point on the ground and held the stick on the aft stop and kept the wings level with rudder. Once I had lost 1000' I noted the point on the ground next to me. This was 2300' horizontally from where I started the descent. This works out to a 24 degree descent angle. I thought it would have been higher in this configuration.

Wind was negligible at the time I did this. I've also got a fixed pitch prop. CS prop would descend steeper. Even so, my Pitts slips much steeper than anything else I've flown. But I've never tried to extract max descent angle out some of the other types, so don't know what kind of numbers others will do. Pretty sure I can't beat the Pitts in the Cub, though. :) A near 60 degree descent angle would be very impressive to see.
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What does it work out to in a spin? :)
 
rottydaddy said:
I figure in a fwd slip, there is just way more drag than in a coordinated power-off stall.
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It depends on how slick the airplane is and if form drag is greater than induced drag. The Pitts is a dirty as hell airplane with a relatively low lift/high speed wing so it will be helped by slipping to a larger degree at low speed and has a low induced drag signature than a slick clean plane with a high lift/low speed wing.
 
OK, so I got close to a 40 degree descent angle on this one with a slight slipping turn and 7KT or so wind on the nose. :) Entered the full-deflection slip at 1000' AGL and reached the ground level 16 seconds later for an average 3,800 FPM descent. So looks like I get about an extra 500 FPM out of it by turning slightly during the slip. This is just as much fun as doing acro. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AaBCIZRspA&feature=youtu.be
 
whifferdill said:
OK, so I got close to a 40 degree descent angle on this one with a slight slipping turn and 7KT or so wind on the nose. :) Entered the full-deflection slip at 1000' AGL and reached the ground level 16 seconds later for an average 3,800 FPM descent. So looks like I get about an extra 500 FPM out of it by turning slightly during the slip. This is just as much fun as doing acro. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AaBCIZRspA&feature=youtu.be
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Looks about like the flybaby landing profile power-off.
 
whifferdill said:
OK, so I got close to a 40 degree descent angle on this one with a slight slipping turn and 7KT or so wind on the nose. :) Entered the full-deflection slip at 1000' AGL and reached the ground level 16 seconds later for an average 3,800 FPM descent. So looks like I get about an extra 500 FPM out of it by turning slightly during the slip. This is just as much fun as doing acro. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AaBCIZRspA&feature=youtu.be
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Good god that bugger comes down! Awesome video!
 
Whiff where are you at in NC? I'd like to fly with you and try to learn a few things. I'm in Charlotte
 
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Doing a series of T&Gs in a 1941 Cub Coupe once with a few spectators on the fence line next to the apron grass, on downwind we switched to a slipping course reversal to short final with landing and everybody started to run away because they thought we were crashing.

....Either that or they found out I was flying the plane....
 
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