"Crazy" Pitts and Cub Landings

whifferdill

whifferdill

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whifferdill
I was recently told that there are folks at the flight school where I'm based who think I'm crazy...for doing such "extreme", "dangerous" landings such as this. In other words, a slipping turn down to the runway. Modern pilots...:stirpot: A couple T&G's earlier today in the Pitts and Cub. I'm probably lucky to be alive and writing this right now. :) Hope this video doesn't get me in trouble with the FAA for careless or reckless operation. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKeRsg3o15w&context=C4d8ea2aADvjVQa1PpcFNs7_geYKSta3dBCu_va5jYhagyc-R4pa0=
 
Looks like fun to me...Those nancy's are probably confusing their knowlege of a skidding turn with a slipping turn.
 
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Slipping turns are fun. And for aircraft without flaps or with poor visibility on final, they are practical as well. Nice video!
 
I find that people get really uncomfortable with someone doing something that they themselves cant do. Yeah, i couldnt do it, but it looks like fun.
 
Nice video... You know what I liked most of all? No float, perfect airspeed control, and that tailwheel tracking right over the centerline.

When those flight school prop jockeys can do that just as well, then they can start taking lessons from you. Nice piloting!
 
TangoWhiskey said:
When those flight school prop jockeys can do that just as well, then they can start taking lessons from you.
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I think you phrased that wrong, Troy. I think they may need to take lessons from Whiff in order to do that just as well. ;):rofl:
 
I'm only a rookie pilot and I'm surprised that there are people that are afraid of a slipping turn. I thought that everyone was taught slipping turns in their private curriculum. Is this not true? It's really kind of easy to get into because you already have the wing down anyway.

Maybe I live in an isolated world since both my instructors were old school.
 
I don't see anything careless or reckless about that, nor anything requiring "special pilot skills":rolleyes:.

I teach my clients those techniques as my airplane has no flaps.

Some folks have a problem with others having fun in an airplane, and there are some airplanes that are good for nothing but having fun:D.

In a J3 if you hold the nose in a climb attitude during the slip and return it to glide attitude as you come out you will not get that float at the bottom:yesnod:.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I'm only a rookie pilot and I'm surprised that there are people that are afraid of a slipping turn. I thought that everyone was taught slipping turns in their private curriculum. Is this not true? It's really kind of easy to get into because you already have the wing down anyway.

Maybe I live in an isolated world since both my instructors were old school.
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NO! Many people are taught to avoid them because their CFIs were taught the OWT during their PP that slipped stalls break into spins, they add to that the increased stall speed with bank (not understanding it has nothing to do with bank, rather pull) and that turns a slipping turn into a game of Russian Roulette in their minds.
 
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All looked like normal landings to me as that is the same way I land the N3N most of the time. Really nice landings and as I keep saying you can tell a good Pitts pilot by how little the rudder moves on landing or take off. Don
 
I usually kick the tail out and straighten up a bit earlier, but far be it for me to tell the OP how to land an airplane. Like Stevie Wonder telling Picasso how to paint.
 
You are going to die :hairraise: Don't you know that if you get too slow, the airplane will flip over in a heartbeat and you will be in an inverted spin!!!1!

Seriously nice work there. I am just starting to do that in the Luscombe. I usually feed in the aileron and adverse yaw does most of the work :)
 
It was not too long ago that i thought a slipping turn was just as dangerous as a skidding turn. I was taught the dangers of a skidding turn in the pattern and the outcome is so fatal I was taught that the cure is to simply fly coordinated.

Flying coordinated is a cure. Turns out its not the only one though. PoA taught me that a slipping turn isnt going to result in a snap roll. The reason I was taught the way I was taught is because I went to what some folks here would call a "puppy mill" (while they roll their eyes and sorta scrunch up their face in disgust).

The "puppy mills" serve a client that is planning to move up into the 121 world. As such they don't teach turning slips. They teach things like stabilised approaches, checklists for all phases of flight and Crew Resourse Management.

It's a different deal. Same PTS, but you'd be amazed at how different it can be. BTW, those puppy mills have a pretty darn good safety record. Everyone can't be from the Military. In ironic twist the puppy mills are dying right now. They produced so many pilots there became such a glut that pilot wages fell. Now those wages don't support the cost of traing and banks won't lend the money...so the puppy mills are folding.
 
Looks like great fun! Like the others said the tailwheel perfectly on center line and tracking perfectly straight. Not easy in that plane (I've heard).

I want my tail wheel endorsement so badly. Don't want to hijack but do any of you KAPA guys have recommendations for a tail wheel instructor in the Denver area?
 
yakdriver said:
All looked like normal landings to me as that is the same way I land the N3N most of the time.
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Exactly. Kinda sad how little exposure many folks now have to other types of airplanes and the way they're generally flown.
 
Soooo if one of these "experts" has a flap failure how do they propose to lose altitude without gaining speed? I fear I am getting to that crusty old codger stage, because I see and hear examples of this kind of nonsense more frequently it seems. Your landings could be an illustration of the phrase in the commercial PTS language: "Demonstrates mastery"....etc.
 
Is there a plane in the world that won't descend with flaps up (or no flaps installed) with the power out? My guess is all planes would require some amount of power to maintain a 3 degree glide slope with no flaps. (gliders excluded, of course)
 
Captain said:
Is there a plane in the world that won't descend with flaps up (or no flaps installed) with the power out? My guess is all planes would require some amount of power to maintain a 3 degree glide slope with no flaps. (gliders excluded, of course)
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I interpreted what threefingerjack meant was in a scenario where a pilot who was not familiar with landing with no flaps had a flap failure and ended up high and hot on the approach, not that an airplane will not descend without flaps.
 
I was doing those at my airport as a soloed student. Not quite as pretty, and not straightening out quite so late though...

I did have a nice surprise one time. The pattern, taxiways and runway were clear when I started. When I broke the slip and straightened out, I saw there was a loaded cropduster sitting on the runway mid field. No radio calls, no looking at the pattern, I've learned that that behavior is pretty much normal for the cropdusters working out of our field.
 
dillardrg said:
I interpreted what threefingerjack meant was in a scenario where a pilot who was not familiar with landing with no flaps had a flap failure and ended up high and hot on the approach, not that an airplane will not descend without flaps.
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Thank you for the clarification. Your interpretation was correct. I may be old, but I still remember that gravity works 100% of the time. :) My point was that basic control maneuvers like the slip to landing should be in every pilot's toolbox. My comment assumed a common understanding that basic flight physics were a given. But there is one in every crowd I guess. I will yield to the more experienced flyers here.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Thank you for the clarification. Your interpretation was correct. I may be old, but I still remember that gravity works 100% of the time. :) My point was that basic control maneuvers like the slip to landing should be in every pilot's toolbox. My comment assumed a common understanding that basic flight physics were a given. But there is one in every crowd I guess. I will yield to the more experienced flyers here.
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I was about 50 hours post-checkride before I figured out that I had been taught very little about slips/skids/spins, and by an instructor that was scared of them. I rectified that quite quickly with another instructor, but it really opened my eyes up about what else I may have been short on.

I don't want to paint with too broad a brush here - but there are far too many primary instructors these days that are both illiterate in, and afraid of, slips/skids/spins and don't teach them to their students. Lack of knowledge on the students part can end up with wrinkled metal later on. You could easily take that one step further and add LOP and mountain ops in the mix, but I understand that the instructors are just trying to reach the minimum curriculum... :nonod:
 
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airguy said:
I don't want to paint with too broad a brush here - but there are far too many primary instructors these days that are both illiterate in, and afraid of, slips/skids/spins and don't teach them to their students. Lack of knowledge on the students part can end up with wrinkled metal later on. You could easily take that one step further and add LOP and mountain ops in the mix, but I understand that the instructors are just trying to reach the minimum curriculum... :nonod:
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There's a tension between "What a pilot needs to be/know/do to be a safe aviator" and "What this customer needs to progress and attain his/her goal."

Slips are in the PP PTS -- but as you say many pilots are afraid of a deflected ball, as they don't know the difference between a skid and a slip.
 
Captain said:
The "puppy mills" serve a client that is planning to move up into the 121 world. As such they don't teach turning slips. They teach things like stabilised approaches, checklists for all phases of flight and Crew Resourse Management.
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And that is why puppy mills fail the public when the stuff hits the fan (Colgan 3407, AF 447). Basic VFR flying skills are needed in any phase of flight and if you are deficient in those basic skills, it is going to exacerbate any emergency or abnormal situation.

I guarantee you that the Captain (and pax) of the Gimli Glider was glad he knew how to slip an airplane.
 
dmccormack said:
Slips are in the PP PTS -- but as you say many pilots are afraid of a deflected ball, as they don't know the difference between a skid and a slip.
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I can't remember if I've told this story before, but I wasn't afraid of the deflected ball when I was a student....on the contrary, my CFI didn't do a very good job of explaining the difference between a slip and a skid....so you can imagine what was going through the DPE's mind when I put the plane in a full ball deflection skidding base to final turn for my simulated engine failure landing on the checkride:hairraise:

Never did that again.....:nono:
 
Fearless Tower said:
And that is why puppy mills fail the public when the stuff hits the fan (Colgan 3407, AF 447). Basic VFR flying skills are needed in any phase of flight and if you are deficient in those basic skills, it is going to exacerbate any emergency or abnormal situation.

I guarantee you that the Captain (and pax) of the Gimli Glider was glad he knew how to slip an airplane.
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AMEN. :thumbsup: That incident, and the Hudson River ditching were clear examples of pilots who had airmanship skills as opposed to systems management skills. I think it is no coincidence that both were sailplane pilots.
 
It's a little unfair to select 3 or 4 out of millions of flights and chaulk the whole thing up to a dangerous industry full of incompetent pilots.

There have been many many pilots from the military who have done really stupid things and some of those stupid things killed people...a lot of people. Is it your position the military doesn't know how to teach people to fly?

Somehow the argument is that a bunch of scattered CFIs running straight 61 training with no standardization between them except PTS (which puppy mills have to follow too) is the best way to get true training and learn how to fly properly.

Guess what, it's a fine way I'm not knocking it. But an institution that has a hundred CFI and standards for them all with internal oversight and a means to disseminate the latest information to all and work with the FAA has its place in the world of safe pilot training too. Just because it's not the way you learned doesn't make it inferior.
 
Captain said:
It's a little unfair to select 3 or 4 out of millions of flights and chaulk the whole thing up to a dangerous industry full of incompetent pilots.
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I think the point was that those are examples of pilots who either lacked or failed to use basic piloting concepts and techniques.

Captain said:
But an institution that has a hundred CFI and standards for them all with internal oversight and a means to disseminate the latest information to all and work with the FAA has its place in the world of safe pilot training too. Just because it's not the way you learned doesn't make it inferior.
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ANY program, part 61, Military, or a "puppy mill", which fails to transmit basic airmanship and concepts of flight control has failed the pilot candidate and those whose lives he will be entrusted with. I think the nexus of this whole thread was the attitude of the local "experts" than a slip to a landing which was expertly demonstrated by the OP was "crazy" and "unsafe". I have flown with military pilots which I considered lazy and unsafe, and they were informed so, and action was taken. I have known private CFIs I considered to be marginal, and those I have been honored to fly with. I have no doubt the institution you describe is a good one, and seems to be modeled after military flight schools. You may choose to take these words personally, but ask yourself if the goal of mastering this great pursuit called flying isn't worth looking at everything dispassionately and objectively, and attempting to acquire all the skills one can. Methods may vary, but the common goal for all should be skillful and safe performance of our chosen craft.
 
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You're preaching to the choir. I'm here for that reason. I agree with what you posted just now and my take away is that it's the individual. The crashes sited arn't evidence of 'puppy mills are bad' they're evidence of pilots who didn't do the right thing at the right time. Is that the schools fault or their fault? I tend to believe its more the individuals issue unless there are a ton of graduates from a certain school (GIA maybe) that show a trend.

I think the success rate of the puppy mills of imparting knowledge and making safe pilots would compare favourably to independent CFIs and even approach military standards. I don't really like the term 'puppy mill' either. It's very deragatory. They don't make puppy's. They make pilots and many of those pilots go on to have great careers...safe ones too.

I recently (about a year ago) got checked out at the local FBO in their PA-28. I hadn't flown anything small in many years and I didn't trust myself not to kill myself so I paid for a CFI even though the FBO rules didn't require it. We go up and head to a nearby uncontrolled field and he won't let me enter the pattern straight in. Tells me it's illegal. Okay, whatever. It's not but cooperate and graduate and all.. So I tell him I'll overfly at 1,500 AGL and then circle to enter the downwind on the other side. Nope, he didn't like that either. He has me fly upwind against the downwind. We were outside anyone flying a real tight pattern but, as many complain here, we would have been nose to nose with anyone flying a wider pattern. I was pretty nervous with that plan. Later we were discussing airspace and he referred to his home field as Class C. I corrected him and said, "you mean D". No, he says, it's Class C.

How in gods green earth does a CFI not know the class airspace at his HOME field? Point is theyre out there and they are at all levels. military has tools, part 61 schools do and so do the part 141 'academy's.

I believe it's the individual's that determines what he or she does or doesn't learn. If your attitude is you're 'Joe Pilot' and you spend more time trying to sound cool on the radio with you practiced 'veteran pilot voice' then learning then you might just wind up like Collgan.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Soooo if one of these "experts" has a flap failure how do they propose to lose altitude without gaining speed? I fear I am getting to that crusty old codger stage, because I see and hear examples of this kind of nonsense more frequently it seems. Your landings could be an illustration of the phrase in the commercial PTS language: "Demonstrates mastery"....etc.
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The easy calm straight ahead method of puling back and slowing down some more to increase your sink rate. If I need to do stall speed and a slip to a normal passenger landing, I screwd up. I never slip with non pilot passengers, especially in the back seat. I try to give people a comfortable ride, not make them puke. At MCA with no power on, most planes will bury the VSI down in straight and level attitude, the pax never notice an unconventional approach path.
 
Henning said:
The easy calm straight ahead method of puling back and slowing down some more to increase your sink rate. If I need to do stall speed and a slip to a normal passenger landing, I screwd up. I never slip with non pilot passengers, especially in the back seat. I try to give people a comfortable ride, not make them puke. At MCA with no power on, most planes will bury the VSI down in straight and level attitude, the pax never notice an unconventional approach path.
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If I need to do stall speed and a slip to a normal passenger landing, I screwd up. Indeed. But I'll bet if you were engines out and looking at a dinky little flat spot to put it down under control, you could. The point of this thread IMHO is the attitude of the local experts that this type of maneuver is unsafe or crazy.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
If I need to do stall speed and a slip to a normal passenger landing, I screwd up. Indeed. But I'll bet if you were engines out and looking at a dinky little flat spot to put it down under control, you could. The point of this thread IMHO is the attitude of the local experts that this type of maneuver is unsafe or crazy.
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Yeah, his turn was normal looking to me, I used to do the same at Long Beach when I'd come into the pattern on downwind with a line of 152s stretching into Los Al's airspace, they'd give me "04Y cleared for the option to turn base at the tower for long landing""04Y exercising option"cleared to land", I'd chop power, dump in the rest of the flaps, check gear, stand on the right rudder and dive left skewing for mid field. Those guys were so nice to me lol. Just pointing out there's more than one way to skin that particular cat.
 
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I've done a bit of aerial photography work where slipping turns are necessary in order to get the wing strut (C182) out of the way to get an overhead shot. They also have a practical application in an emergency situation where you have to lose altitude and get it down in a tight spot that may not be straight ahead.
 
I was already planning to go up this week to practice some soft/short field stuff, but thanks to this thread I'll be working on slips as well. :D

Come to think of it, I haven't done much in the way of slips since I started flying the Cherokee at all. Of course, never had a problem getting it to drop like a brick when I chop the power anyway for that matter.
 
My first instructor I had, when I was 13 or 14 taught me how to slip and it was a lot easier for me to see out the window at that young age. Fast forward 5 years and I do it with my new flight school and freaked the instructor out.

I love to perform slip-to-land's and if I were to pay more attention, I'm sure I find that I do them more often than not. The only time I know I focus more on the squared off pattern is during my flight reviews.


Those landings you had in the video were great. Thank you for sharing them.
 
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