COVID Vaccine

[X3 Skier]

I volunteered for the Moderna Vaccine trial. Also took part in another DoD experimental COVID test. The DoD testing showed I have COVID Antibodies so the likely reason is I got the vaccine, not the placebo (Never any symptoms except after the shots).

Since it’s basically the same approach as the Pfizer Vaccine, my guess is I’m pretty much good to go. But I still follow the mask, social distance, etc drill. I just feel no need not to live a normal life of travel, flying. et.al. Latest news is the Moderna vaccine data will be out by the end of the month. Dr. Fauci has he expects the Moderna effectiveness to be similar to Pfizer’s 90%.

Cheers

 

[TCABM]

Is it possible that you did, in fact, receive a placebo and the antibody presence is due to having actually contracted the virus?

Similar vein, how do you know the DoD test is/was accurate?

 

[X3 Skier]

The DoD test included blood draw to have a separate test than the experimental test.

In fact, there’s several possibilities, DoD test was a false positive, I was asymptomatic and actually had COVID, I got the vaccine and it was either effective or not or the identified the wrong guy. Probably others.

I apply Occam’s razor a) I had zero symptoms of COVID, b) at least four negative “brain swabs” during this time, c) lots of soreness after the two injections, d) no indications of COVID from the many blood draws in the trial and e) if it was a placebo, why did it hurt?

My conclusion, I got a pretty good chance of having gotten a vaccine similar to the Pfizer effective version.

I’ll only know when they tell me.

Cheers

 

[David Megginson]

The Pfizer vaccine -- assuming it passes peer review and advanced trials (call it a 50:50 chance) -- requires a -70c cold chain right up to day of use. Only lab freezers go that cold, not ordinary freezers in clinics, or doctors' offices, much less the typical refrigerated truck or shipping container.

So if you think the vaccine is going to succeed and you like to play the stock market, now is the time to invest in any companies making stuff involved in extreme-cold storage and shipping, as well as just-in-time cold delivery inside cities (maybe even dry ice for small towns). I'll accept a 5% commission on your first $50M as a tip for the advice.

If you remember how long it took us just to get enough N95 masks for front-line health workers or handsanitizer for retail, you can guess what it's going to be like getting vaccines to about 350 million Americans and Canadians when they have to be kept that cold 24/7 until the day they're given.

 

[bflynn]

I've lost the reference now, but I read of an accidental discovery during vaccine development. About 50% of the pre-covid blood samples from 2017-2018 that were in the study control group already had immunity to covid. These were blood samples that were drawn before the virus spread but they already had antibodies that protected against the virus.

This may be a significant reason why we've only had 10 million cases in the US over the year. With as contagious as it is reported to be, it should have spread through the entire country. There have been 40-50 million flu cases in the past 12 months and we have a vaccine for that.

 

[GeorgeC]

I read that the Moderna only needs -20C, compared to -70C for the Pfizer, despite both being mRNA vaccines.

 

[WannFly]

i have some hopes for https://www.inovio.com/ thought they are ways out if at all. the best part is it can be kept in room temp.

 

[GaryM]

The Pfizer vaccine -- assuming it passes peer review and advanced trials (call it a 50:50 chance) -- requires a -70c cold chain right up to day of use. Only lab freezers go that cold, not ordinary freezers in clinics, or doctors' offices, much less the typical refrigerated truck or shipping container.

So if you think the vaccine is going to succeed and you like to play the stock market, now is the time to invest in any companies making stuff involved in extreme-cold storage and shipping, as well as just-in-time cold delivery inside cities (maybe even dry ice for small towns). I'll accept a 5% commission on your first $50M as a tip for the advice.

If you remember how long it took us just to get enough N95 masks for front-line health workers or handsanitizer for retail, you can guess what it's going to be like getting vaccines to about 350 million Americans and Canadians when they have to be kept that cold 24/7 until the day they're given.

This late in the Phase III trials, I think the odds are much better than 50:50 of the Pfizer vaccine being approved. And I doubt that it will be the only one approved in the coming months...but it's true, nothing is certain until the FDA signs off.

The -80 C cold chain is a daunting problem, but it may be too late to cash in, at least in a big way, on the hardware. Pfizer has been buying up freezers and dry ice capacity for months in anticipation of approval.

There are follow-on vaccine candidates in the pipeline of several companies, and they generally don't require -80 storage, and a two-injection regimen, so I expect things to get simpler over the next year or two. In the short term, I'm just happy to see such good prospects for 90%+ efficacy even if the distribution will be challenging.

 

[luvflyin]

Thing I’m not getting about this. They say 90% efficacy. I asssume that means 90% don’t get it and 10% do. But how can that have meaning if everyone isn’t deliberately exposed? Near as I can tell, they don’t do that. What am I missing?

 

[eman1200]

so covid is SOOOOO bad that u may have already had it and never knew it. gotcha.

I don't pay too much attention to this stuff, but doesn't the flu shot actually give you the flu? so does the covid shot give u covid?

 

[Bob Noel]

During the 10 Nov briefing (Massachusetts Governor's media availability briefing https://www.mass.gov/governor-updates), Health Sect Sudder discussed how the vaccine need to be -70 (or whatever), but it would come in a box of dry ice, which would allow the vaccine to remain viable for 8 days. She also said that the vaccine doesn't need to be -70 immediately prior to be adminisitered.

 

[GeorgeC]

doesn't the flu shot actually give you the flu? so does the covid shot give u covid?

No and no.

 

[eman1200]

No and no.

k. well, I'm still not getting either shot. I hear when some people get the flu shot they actually get the flu. but wtf do I know.

 

[steingar]

k. well, I'm still not getting either shot. I hear when some people get the flu shot they actually get the flu. but wtf do I know.

It depends on the vaccination. There are vaccines that use an attenuated virus, meaning that you do get infection and some disease, but not the full Monty. Goes all the way back to Jenner.

None of the COVID vaccines use virus at all. They are trying to make your body produce a part of virus so the immune system can react to it.

 

[Bob Noel]

k. well, I'm still not getting either shot. I hear when some people get the flu shot they actually get the flu. but wtf do I know.

AFAIK - no flu vaccine that is 100% effective and no flu vaccine covers all variants of the flu.

So, if someone is vaccinated and gets the flu doesn't mean that the vaccine caused the flu.

but, what do I know...

 

[GaryM]

Thing I’m not getting about this. They say 90% efficacy. I asssume that means 90% don’t get it and 10% do. But how can that have meaning if everyone isn’t deliberately exposed? Near as I can tell, they don’t do that. What am I missing?

There is a group in the UK seeking permission to run a challenge trial (deliberately exposing patients), but you are right, it's not something that has been done in the existing trials...and I'm skeptical about the odds of the UK group getting permission.

The Pfizer trial reported that 94 participants reported PCR-confirmed symptomatic COVID cases. This trial was run with a 1:1 ratio of placebo to vaccine recipients, so if 8 participants who received the vaccine got COVID, and 86 participants who received placebo got COVID, that would be 90% efficacy. I think Pfizer reported greater than 90%, but I don't think I saw the actual split of the 94 cases between placebo and vaccine recipients.

 

[eman1200]

Why do some people not feel well after getting a seasonal flu vaccine?
Some people report having mild side effects after flu vaccination. The most common side effects from flu shots are soreness, redness, tenderness or swelling where the shot was given. Low-grade fever, headache and muscle aches also may occur. If these reactions occur, they usually begin soon after vaccination and last 1-2 days. In randomized, blinded studies, where some people got inactivated flu shots and others got salt-water shots, the only differences in symptoms was increased soreness in the arm and redness at the injection site among people who got a flu shot. There were no differences in terms of body aches, fever, cough, runny nose or sore throat.

Side effects from the nasal spray flu vaccine may include: runny nose, wheezing, headache, vomiting, muscle aches, fever, sore throat and cough. If these problems occur, they usually begin soon after vaccination and are mild and short-lived. The most common reactions people have to flu vaccines are considerably less severe than the symptoms caused by actual flu illness.


What about people who get a seasonal flu vaccine and still get sick with flu symptoms?
There are several reasons why someone might get flu symptoms, even after they have been vaccinated against flu.

1. One reason is that some people can become ill from other respiratory viruses besides flu such as rhinoviruses, which are associated with the common cold, cause symptoms similar to flu, and also spread and cause illness during the flu season. The flu vaccine only protects against flu, not other illnesses.
2. Another explanation is that it is possible to be exposed to flu viruses, which cause flu, shortly before getting vaccinated or during the two-week period after vaccination that it takes the body to develop immune protection. This exposure may result in a person becoming ill with flu before protection from vaccination takes effect.
3. A third reason why some people may experience flu symptoms despite getting vaccinated is that they may have been exposed to a flu virus that is very different from the viruses the vaccine is designed to protect against. The ability of a flu vaccine to protect a person depends largely on the similarity or “match” between the viruses selected to make the vaccine and those spreading and causing illness. There are many different flu viruses that spread and cause illness among people. For more information, see Influenza (Flu) Viruses.
4. The final explanation for experiencing flu symptoms after vaccination is that flu vaccines vary in how well they work and some people who get vaccinated still get sick. When that happens, though vaccination has been shown in several studies to reduce severity of illness in those people who get vaccinated but still get sick.

I'll stick with my original plan........

 

[steingar]

@eman1200 do what you want. Whenever you get a vaccine you are initiating an immune response, and that never feels good. I promise you that the worst vaccine reaction you've ever had is way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way less symptomatic than a case of influenza or COVID. Most people think of the flu as a 24 hour thing. It isn't. If you haven't thought you were going to die or wanted to do so, you haven't had the flu. And COVID is way worse in terms of infectivity and symptomology.

 

[RyanB]

way less symptomatic than a case of influenza or COVID. Most people think of the flu as a 24 hour thing. It isn't. If you haven't thought you were going to die or wanted to do so, you haven't had the flu. And COVID is way worse in terms of infectivity and symptomology.

Those who are asymptomatic may disagree with this sentiment. Lots of people have reported mild cases as well, so it’s no one size fits all generalization here.

 

[TCABM]

... I’ll only know when they tell me.

I didn’t even know that happens, glad to hear you will get some confirmation at the end of the ordeal.

My mind wonders about all various outcomes and whether a test subject is informed at end of trial.

 

[steingar]

Those who are asymptomatic may disagree with this sentiment. Lots of people have reported mild cases as well, so it’s no one size fits all generalization here.

Have you actually met anyone who is "asymtomaic". I haven't. I've met lots of COVID sufferers by now, and not even one of them has been asymptomatic. All have had high fevers and pretty nasty sickness. The "mildest" I've heard about the high fever only lasted one night. Go ahead, get infected. You are playing Russian roulette with your health and the health of anyone with whom yo interact while you're giving off viral particles with every breath.

 

[David Megginson]

k. well, I'm still not getting either shot. I hear when some people get the flu shot they actually get the flu. but wtf do I know.

Hmm. I heard that there's a secret magic land of unicorns and rainbows. "I heard" is not a very reliable source. Try the CDC, WHO, your state's official public health website, etc.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I read the Pfizer vaccine only needs to be kept at -80 until within 5 days of administration, and that there is a 5 day period where it can be refrigerated normally and still be good. Still, likely to be some spoilage when supply-chain breakdowns occur.

At the forecasted production rates, we're going to need 3 or 4 workable vaccines for the US to be able to get out of the worst of this by next spring.

 

[RyanB]

Have you actually met anyone who is "asymtomaic". I haven't. I've met lots of COVID sufferers by now, and not even one of them has been asymptomatic. All have had high fevers and pretty nasty sickness. The "mildest" I've heard about the high fever only lasted one night. Go ahead, get infected.

Yes I have, a few actually and all had positive tests from doc in a box clinics.

You are playing Russian roulette with your health and the health of anyone with whom yo interact while you're giving off viral particles with every breath.

Well, I’m not suggesting that anyone play Russian roulette with this, but I am saying that it’s not something to make generalized statements about, as it doesn’t effect everyone the same way.

 

[crash7]

Have you actually met anyone who is "asymtomaic". I haven't. I've met lots of COVID sufferers by now, and not even one of them has been asymptomatic. All have had high fevers and pretty nasty sickness. The "mildest" I've heard about the high fever only lasted one night. Go ahead, get infected. You are playing Russian roulette with your health and the health of anyone with whom yo interact while you're giving off viral particles with every breath.

Kinda hard to meet someone asymptomatic because they’re, well... asymptotic. Could be hundreds, thousands, dozens of millions.

I personally know two people that said they’ve had worse colds before.

But, let’s mandate the **** out of everyone...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PaulS]

@eman1200 do what you want. Whenever you get a vaccine you are initiating an immune response, and that never feels good. I promise you that the worst vaccine reaction you've ever had is way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way less symptomatic than a case of influenza or COVID. Most people think of the flu as a 24 hour thing. It isn't. If you haven't thought you were going to die or wanted to do so, you haven't had the flu. And COVID is way worse in terms of infectivity and symptomology.

I had the flu about 30 years ago now, knocked me out of work for about 3 weeks, and felt like crap for a couple weeks after that. Doc asked me if I had gotten the flu shot, I told him no, he said " you might want to think about getting it, every year, for the rest of your life." Haven't missed a year since, going out this afternoon to get this year's shot.

 

[luvflyin]

There is a group in the UK seeking permission to run a challenge trial (deliberately exposing patients), but you are right, it's not something that has been done in the existing trials...and I'm skeptical about the odds of the UK group getting permission.

The Pfizer trial reported that 94 participants reported PCR-confirmed symptomatic COVID cases. This trial was run with a 1:1 ratio of placebo to vaccine recipients, so if 8 participants who received the vaccine got COVID, and 86 participants who received placebo got COVID, that would be 90% efficacy. I think Pfizer reported greater than 90%, but I don't think I saw the actual split of the 94 cases between placebo and vaccine recipients.

Ah. Now I get it

 

[kath]

The flu vaccine is not “a little bit of flu”.
Vaccines are a marvel of modern medicine and science, and a simple thing you can do to improve the lives of those around you.
Lives of people whose names you will never know, and who will not be able to thank you. But does that matter?

 

[wsuffa]

The only vaccine that made me feel ill for a couple of days afterward was Shingrix. It brought me down for about 48 hours and the arm was sore for close to a week. I'm due for the second dose early next year.

Still better than the pain of shingles.

Flu vaccine doesn't usually affect me in a negative fashion.

 

[Lindberg]

Why do some people not feel well after getting a seasonal flu vaccine?
Some people report having mild side effects after flu vaccination. The most common side effects from flu shots are soreness, redness, tenderness or swelling where the shot was given. Low-grade fever, headache and muscle aches also may occur. If these reactions occur, they usually begin soon after vaccination and last 1-2 days. In randomized, blinded studies, where some people got inactivated flu shots and others got salt-water shots, the only differences in symptoms was increased soreness in the arm and redness at the injection site among people who got a flu shot. There were no differences in terms of body aches, fever, cough, runny nose or sore throat.

Side effects from the nasal spray flu vaccine may include: runny nose, wheezing, headache, vomiting, muscle aches, fever, sore throat and cough. If these problems occur, they usually begin soon after vaccination and are mild and short-lived. The most common reactions people have to flu vaccines are considerably less severe than the symptoms caused by actual flu illness.


What about people who get a seasonal flu vaccine and still get sick with flu symptoms?
There are several reasons why someone might get flu symptoms, even after they have been vaccinated against flu.

1. One reason is that some people can become ill from other respiratory viruses besides flu such as rhinoviruses, which are associated with the common cold, cause symptoms similar to flu, and also spread and cause illness during the flu season. The flu vaccine only protects against flu, not other illnesses.
2. Another explanation is that it is possible to be exposed to flu viruses, which cause flu, shortly before getting vaccinated or during the two-week period after vaccination that it takes the body to develop immune protection. This exposure may result in a person becoming ill with flu before protection from vaccination takes effect.
3. A third reason why some people may experience flu symptoms despite getting vaccinated is that they may have been exposed to a flu virus that is very different from the viruses the vaccine is designed to protect against. The ability of a flu vaccine to protect a person depends largely on the similarity or “match” between the viruses selected to make the vaccine and those spreading and causing illness. There are many different flu viruses that spread and cause illness among people. For more information, see Influenza (Flu) Viruses.
4. The final explanation for experiencing flu symptoms after vaccination is that flu vaccines vary in how well they work and some people who get vaccinated still get sick. When that happens, though vaccination has been shown in several studies to reduce severity of illness in those people who get vaccinated but still get sick.

I'll stick with my original plan........

No one who's had the actual flu would confuse it with "flu like symptoms" you might get after the flu shot. And speaking as someone who was once hospitalized and spent a year recovering from an autoimmune illness possibly caused by over vaccination, get the shots.

 

[eman1200]

for now I'm just gonna follow X3's adventure and cheer him on.

 

[GeorgeC]

Thank you for volunteering, @X3 Skier.

 

[Zeldman]

I do not want to get the flu.
I do not want to get pneumonia.
I do not want to get mumps.
I do not want to get shingles.
I do not want to get Covid 19.

I do get shots for all above, except one. And that will happen when it becomes available.

I have read claims that folks with O positive blood, high levels of Vitamin D and take certain allergy meds are less likely to contract Covid 19, so maybe I got that going for me, but I am not going bet my health on that.

 

[murphey]

The Pfizer vaccine -- assuming it passes peer review and advanced trials (call it a 50:50 chance) -- requires a -70c cold chain right up to day of use. Only lab freezers go that cold, not ordinary freezers in clinics, or doctors' offices, much less the typical refrigerated truck or shipping container.

So if you think the vaccine is going to succeed and you like to play the stock market, now is the time to invest in any companies making stuff involved in extreme-cold storage and shipping, as well as just-in-time cold delivery inside cities (maybe even dry ice for small towns). I'll accept a 5% commission on your first $50M as a tip for the advice.

If you remember how long it took us just to get enough N95 masks for front-line health workers or handsanitizer for retail, you can guess what it's going to be like getting vaccines to about 350 million Americans and Canadians when they have to be kept that cold 24/7 until the day they're given.

Have you considered what it's going to feel like, getting -70c liquid into your arm....?

 

[murphey]

so covid is SOOOOO bad that u may have already had it and never knew it. gotcha.

I don't pay too much attention to this stuff, but doesn't the flu shot actually give you the flu? so does the covid shot give u covid?

From the CSC website:
Flu vaccines cause antibodies to develop in the body about two weeks after vaccination. These antibodies provide protection against infection with the viruses that are used to make the vaccine.

From CBC.kids which is the Canadian Broadcasting Company (I like this explanation better)
The flu shot works by introducing your body to tiny little parts of different flu viruses.


This triggers a reaction from your immune system — the processes in your body that fight off infection.


Your immune system realizes these virus fragments shouldn’t be in your body, and figures out how to destroy them. In the process, it learns and remembers how to fight off viruses like this in the future.

 

[murphey]

@eman1200 do what you want. Whenever you get a vaccine you are initiating an immune response, and that never feels good. I promise you that the worst vaccine reaction you've ever had is way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way less symptomatic than a case of influenza or COVID. Most people think of the flu as a 24 hour thing. It isn't. If you haven't thought you were going to die or wanted to do so, you haven't had the flu. And COVID is way worse in terms of infectivity and symptomology.

BTDT. The flu, I mean. For me, 7 days of misery, another 3 tapering off.

 

[murphey]

The only vaccine that made me feel ill for a couple of days afterward was Shingrix. It brought me down for about 48 hours and the arm was sore for close to a week. I'm due for the second dose early next year.

Still better than the pain of shingles.

Flu vaccine doesn't usually affect me in a negative fashion.

I got the 1-shot shingles a number of years ago. During my Basic Med checkup with my doc, he said definitely get the Shringrix. So I got the first one in March - almost no reaction. Second shot in June....wham! I expected the arm to hurt for almost a week, but overall malaise for a couple days, a bit difficult to concentrate added to the misery. I've never had a reaction to anything like that before.

 

[murphey]

I do not want to get the flu.
I do not want to get pneumonia.
I do not want to get mumps.
I do not want to get shingles.
I do not want to get Covid 19.

I do get shots for all above, except one. And that will happen when it becomes available.

I have read claims that folks with O positive blood, high levels of Vitamin D and take certain allergy meds are less likely to contract Covid 19, so maybe I got that going for me, but I am not going bet my health on that.

I had mumps, measels and chicken pox all the same summer when I was 8 or 9. Don't think I ever got any shots for them. I'm asking about the measels shot next time I talk to my Dr. I do need an update on my DPT, probably next year.

 

[172andyou]

if it was a placebo, why did it hurt?

I agree with your logic and conclusion that you very likely had the actual vaccine given the totality of the evidence. But it is also true that the placebo could have cause irritation simply from the mechanical action of the injection.

About 50% of the pre-covid blood samples from 2017-2018 that were in the study control group already had immunity to covid.

Nope. That never happened. sars-cov-2 is new and people, much less 50% of people, didn't have immunity to it two years ago.

You are *probably* misremembering that some people in a study of blood given at the very end of last year and early this year had already been exposed.

I don't pay too much attention to this stuff

It's impressive how firm your opinion is, given that (accurate) admission.

 

[GaryM]

Have you considered what it's going to feel like, getting -70c liquid into your arm....?

I assume that's tongue-in-cheek but lest it scare anyone off...they do allow it to warm to room temperature shortly before injection.