Could really use some advice here......

[N6399A]

Here’s my problem……. I have a dear friend whose wife is one of my very best friends. For the purpose of this post we will call him Sam. Sam’s been a PP for about a year and a half, and has approx. 125 hours. He’s NOT one of us. By that I mean, he got his PP ASEL and he’s ALL DONE. He’s not cracked a book or practiced a maneuver since. He actually told me after I passed my check-ride, and I quote “Now you can just fly wherever you want without ever thinking about practicing anything. I haven’t done a steep turn or any other maneuver since I took my practical” end quote. I guarantee that he knows nothing of the stats regarding low time pilots in, new to them, high powered aircraft. I’ve pretty much given up trying to talk aviation with him (Sam) because I lose him too quickly, which is quite frightening considering my extremely limited experience and knowledge base. He’s pretty much flown only his 150/150.

Anyway, yesterday Sam called to tell me he’d put a deposit down on a Super Viking. He’d found it on e-Bay. He wanted to see if my AI would do a pre-purchase. My AI declined quickly not wanting to get involved in anything that clearly had disaster written all over it. Sam’s very excited about this Viking because it has a storm scope and a GPS with a COM. He’s never seen a GPS with a COM before, and didn’t know such a thing existed. Now maybe I’m being too critical, but how does one buy any airplane without having some idea of basic avionics that are available? Apparently Sam and I do things very differently.

Anyway here’s my problem………. I know it’s none of my business. I know I should probably keep my mouth shut. My conscience, however, is having a problem with saying nothing. Sam really doesn’t listen to anyone. He kind of assumes a know it all attitude. He didn’t listen to my AI, who's also a very high hour ATP, when he suggested he look at other airplanes. He’s surely not going to listen to a chic that just got her PP cert. no matter how good of friends we are.

I’m having lunch tomorrow with Sam’s wife, who knows zilch about airplanes and thinks that because they’ve successfully made a couple of $100 hamburger trips her husband is pilot of the year. My CFI, thinks I should try and get to her and squelch the deal that way. Wives……… having so much power……..and all. I’m just not quite sure how to word it?

I guess I just want to know what you guys think, and what you would do. Would you say nothing and hope for the best? Would you risk the relationship and try to explain the problems with his plan, knowing that you were wasting your breath? Or, since a more qualified person already tried to talk him out of it, would you just leave it alone? Or, am I way out in left field for even worrying about it? If you think I’m over-reacting to a non issue don’t hesitate to say so. It would make me feel much better.

 

[SkyHog]

I would probably voice concern. Have you flown with Sam, and if so, do you find him to be a proficient pilot? If not, then definitely voice concern. If he seems ok, then just make sure he knows about flying the faster planes.

 

[EdFred]

Let me do his flight review. *evil grin*

 

[N6399A]

I would probably voice concern. Have you flown with Sam, and if so, do you find him to be a proficient pilot? If not, then definitely voice concern. If he seems ok, then just make sure he knows about flying the faster planes.

In all fairness............ I have not flown with Sam. Sam's plane is not one that I'm interested in climbing into. My AI/friend refused to do it's annual after an hour of looking and head shaking, stating that the plane was not a candidate for an annual............ only a restoration. It spits fuel on you when you prime it. I don't know about you, but I'm not a fan of airplanes that spit. Nor do I want to fly in something that can't be primed without incident.

 

[N6399A]

Let me do his flight review. *evil grin*

That is sooooo what I'm hoping for!!! I want to refer someone to help him with his BFR.

 

[EdFred]

In all fairness............ I have not flown with Sam. Sam's plane is not one that I'm interested in climbing into. My AI/friend refused to do it's annual after an hour of looking and head shaking, stating that the plane was not a candidate for an annual............ only a restoration. It spits fuel on you when you prime it. I don't know about you, but I'm not a fan of airplanes that spit. Nor do I want to fly in something that can't be primed without incident.

Eeesh! If he can't be reasoned with, and flies a plane in that sort of condition, find out where an FAA inspector is going to be that day, and suggest that you both fly there (in your individual planes) for lunch one day. Don't turn him in, but just hope that he does something dumb enough and that an FAA person might see him do it. Sounds like a TFR buster in the making.

 

[tonycondon]

does his 150/150 have a towhook? is it for sale?

 

[Patch]

There are always three sides to every story. I don't know the guy or his flying habits, but I can't see a GPS with a COM being that big of a monster system. He may not need it for his experience level, but as they say - a fool and his money are soon parted.

If you're just concerned that the dude is just an uninformed buyer - you should probably just shy away from discussing the issue with him, as you'll only unnecessarily lose a friend.

The fact that he doesn't practice steep turns, slow flight, et al doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad pilot. He may not be the most proficient, but flying is more than just going out and practicing PTS stuff then beating up the pattern for an hour. That stuff eventually becomes queep - not the mission. Some people just use their flight time to go places.

The third case is the one that should be of concern. If you think he could be a danger to himself or others with such an aircraft - you need to speak up. That's about the only firm ground you'd have here, and that's only if you've actually seen him do stupid things, not assumptions based on what interests you think he should take.

It's a tough situation to be in, but try to look at it as objectively as possible. Is this just another guy with too much money to spend, or is he potentially another headline?

 

[N6399A]

does his 150/150 have a towhook? is it for sale?

OMG........... have you been on e-Bay looking at airplanes too. Please keep this thread in confidence. I mean............ no.....um........... uh.......... that's probably not his plane.

 

[TMetzinger]

Perhaps you can talk to your friend (his wife), and plant some seeds of doubt in her mind, while not appearing to be negative or jealous. Some suggested seeds:

"You'll really love the Viking, if it's been well cared for. I've been told they're great airplanes, though finding parts can be tough and expensive".

"If Sam does the Wings pilot proficiency program instead of a flight review, you'll likely be able to save money on insuring the Viking. Since the airplane is bigger and faster than he's flown before, the insurance company will want to stick him with an instructor for a while to get used to it. WINGS will help show them he's really interested in being a safe pilot. That may compensate for the fact that he's relatively inexperienced."

"Wow, a Viking! Do you know if it's got the wooden wings?"

After doing that, you need to reassess based on what you know of his flying skills and how much you value the friendship. As I understand it, you don't want to be a buttinsky, but you don't want to read about your friend buying a farm because she has no way to evaluate how (un)safe a pilot her husband may be.

Since the insurance company WILL mandate a certain amount of dual before he can take that airplane as PIC, the "burden" of judging him competent will fall to that CFI.

Now, if you KNOW that he's being unsafe (didn't get the dual the insurance company required, flying with pax when not legal), then find your nearest Aviation Safety Counselor, and unload on them. They can be the "bad guy" from that point on.

Best wishes,

 

[N6399A]

The third case is the one that should be of concern. If you think he could be a danger to himself or others with such an aircraft - you need to speak up. That's about the only firm ground you'd have here, and that's only if you've actually seen him do stupid things, not assumptions based on what interests you think he should take.

Don't get me wrong............ I'm not saying he is unsafe. I'm just concerned about the combo. Low time, switching to a 300hp airplane, and not subscribing to the license to learn school of thought.

 

[tonycondon]

OMG........... have you been on e-Bay looking at airplanes too. Please keep this thread in confidence. I mean............ no.....um........... uh.......... that's probably not his plane.

no i havent, but a 150/150 with a towhook is a good airplane. twas a serious question. ive had no contact with him

 

[tonycondon]

hmmm cant find it? already sell?

 

[silver-eagle]

If I were you, and you value the friendship, stay out of it. Way out. Hope for his Flight Review to be an eye-opener. And hope he doesn't become a statistic.
But if you're ready to tear up your friendship, tell him flat out what you think. Tell him you'll never ride in the plane with him, that your mechanic thinks the plane is unsafe, that if he's not staying current, he's a danger to himself and his wife. You don't have to be cruel about it but however you present it could have a negative affect on your relationship.
And 50 hours PIC versus 1000 hours PIC don't mean a thing if you bend metal or worse, injure or kill someone.

 

[N6399A]

no i havent, but a 150/150 with a towhook is a good airplane. twas a serious question. ive had no contact with him

I have no doubt that a well maintained 150/150 is a good airplane. His plane is to sell it on e-Bay if he buys the Viking. I just thought he may have listed it already.

 

[tonycondon]

I have no doubt that a well maintained 150/150 is a good airplane. His plane is to sell it on e-Bay if he buys the Viking. I just thought he may have listed it already.

ah, are you insinuating that perhaps his maintenance isnt the best? I think a 150/150 (or better yet a 180/150) would be a great towplane for our club.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

OMG........... have you been on e-Bay looking at airplanes too. Please keep this thread in confidence. I mean............ no.....um........... uh.......... that's probably not his plane.

Sheri,

Don't mind Tony. He's just towplane-deprived or something. "Hey, that's a real nice new Citation Mustang ya got there... Does it have a tow hook?"

 

[KennyFlys]

Sherri,

I don't know if you know Ben (PHXAvi8tor). He's now a CFI at Westwind. That lunch you're having... that might be a good time to have it at the restaurant at DVT. Then, arrange for Ben to drop by "unexpectedly." This would only help if you already know him. But, the idea would be to bring up her husband as a pilot and looking to buy a plane. He could be asking subtle questions about his experience, instrument time, etc.; just little things that can give her food for thought that flying simply isn't just jumping in and flying across the valley for a burger.

You alone could stress the benefit of him earning an IR. Point blank say you won't feel as confident until you've achieved that skill and remained proficient; that you want to limit how much you take up others until you've done such. I don't know if an IR is your goal but what little I've seen you write, I would expect as much.

It may take a "tough love" approach with these friends. It may even take some scare tactics using examples from the NTSB reports. Often, pilots bite off more than they can chew and it's not just low-time pilots. You already know proficiency is key at any level and this guy doesn't care about that.

If they listen, awesome. I hope something positive happens and he jumps into some more training and experience before more airplane. If he remains stubborn, buy a life insurance policy on the guy. He's set his agenda with time being the only factor.

It's a difficult place to be in. I hope it works out with your friendship growing as a result.

Wishing the best,

Ken

 

[gprellwitz]

ah, are you insinuating that perhaps his maintenance isnt the best? I think a 150/150 (or better yet a 180/150) would be a great towplane for our club.

No, I don't think she's "insinuating". She said flat out:

Sam's plane is not one that I'm interested in climbing into. My AI/friend refused to do it's annual after an hour of looking and head shaking, stating that the plane was not a candidate for an annual............ only a restoration. It spits fuel on you when you prime it. I don't know about you, but I'm not a fan of airplanes that spit. Nor do I want to fly in something that can't be primed without incident.

 

[TMetzinger]

If he remains stubborn, buy a life insurance policy on the guy.

I love that idea. The only drawback is that it can be tough to get decent policy amounts without medical exams, and most of them won't pay off if the named insured dies in a private plane (those that do pay are expensive - I pay close to 1800/yr for $1M life insurance, with no health issues and significant flight time).

So it's hard to get this kind of coverage on a third party without their knowledge.

 

[tonycondon]

No, I don't think she's "insinuating". She said flat out:

oh i obviously didnt read that closely. i saw "150/150" and my clutch slipped and the wheels started spinning.

 

[ScottM]

Well it sounds as if you just need to plant a few seeds of doubt in the buying of a bigger airplane and all the extras it will take. Ask her if Sam has decided where he is going to get his high performance endorsement from. Explain that planes of that power require extra training to become familiar with all the things that could happen and that they happen much faster than in a 150/150. Might want to mention that it is difficult for some pilots to get insurance in those aircraft without a lot of extra training and ask if Sam is looking forward to getting back into a training mode.

When she mentions these to Sam he might back away since he has an apparent aversion to training. I like a lot of the things Tim said as well. Plant those seeds. What they do with the knowledge is their business. If they are smart they will get the extra training and seek out those that can really help them with the purchase decisions.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Sheri,

I do not envy your situation.

Step one: Read this. It's aimed at instructors, but we can all learn the lesson from it. Footnote: The guy who left rubber in the parking lot is still alive.

Step two: Ask yourself... Would you rather your friend be alive and not your friend, or remain your friend until her death in a horrible, fiery crash?

Step three: Print a copy of this and have your friend read it. Then let her know that you would not fly with her husband. Emphasize that you are a *pilot* and will not fly with him, and remind her that ignorance of the risks (because she's not a pilot) does not equal safety.

I wish you luck, this cannot be easy.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Since the insurance company WILL mandate a certain amount of dual before he can take that airplane as PIC, the "burden" of judging him competent will fall to that CFI.

That's assuming the plane will be insured at all... A guy crashed a Columbia near here. Totaled the plane, but managed to walk away. The plane wasn't insured, and he had enough dough to not care.

 

[TMetzinger]

That's assuming the plane will be insured at all... A guy crashed a Columbia near here. Totaled the plane, but managed to walk away. The plane wasn't insured, and he had enough dough to not care.

Good point - no laws require insurance, but most rich folks insure the plane to limit liability, even if they don't file a claim in the event of an accident.

He will require the high performance endorsement, though, so a CFI will be involved one way or another, or he'll be busting the regs, and that will be enough to get him grounded.

 

[tonycondon]

i dunno tim, i know of many "rich" guys who use it to get the hot airplane but the insurance co. won't touch them because of inexperience, so they self insure.

 

[N6399A]

Sheri,

Don't mind Tony. He's just towplane-deprived or something. "Hey, that's a real nice new Citation Mustang ya got there... Does it have a tow hook?"

 

[N6399A]

Ken, I Have met Ben and that's kind of a great idea. Maybe I'll call him and see if that would work for him.

 

[KennyFlys]

Ken, I Have met Ben and that's kind of a great idea. Maybe I'll call him and see if that would work for him.

Uh oh... I've had two great ideas and a brain fart that turned out good this week. This could get scary were it not for at least one good screw up.

 

[N6399A]

Uh oh... I've had two great ideas and a brain fart that turned out good this week. This could get scary were it not for at least one good screw up.

It's only Thursday.............. you've got a few days left.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

He will require the high performance endorsement, though, so a CFI will be involved one way or another, or he'll be busting the regs, and that will be enough to get him grounded.

That's assuming he actually gets caught, which, IMHO, is unlikely. I looked for that Columbia crash I was talking about, and it wasn't in the database... The guy must have gotten things cleaned up and/or hidden awful quick. In the course of looking for that I also found a fatal accident where the pilot had no pilot certificate whatsoever.

Then, there's that guy that was giving instruction at Kate's field. He wasn't even a commercial pilot, much less a CFI. He didn't get nailed until one of his "students" went to take a checkride. Another guy up there bought a plane and taught himself to fly, and then tried to take a checkride without ever getting an hour of dual (though he had satisfied all the other requirements with the exception of having done them with any sort of legal solo endorsements - Dunno how he thought he'd get away with no dual!)

Sorry, I just have no faith in the enforcement side of the FAA. None at all.

 

[TMetzinger]

Well they aren't very proactive, true, but they do well when informed of a problem - at least here in the baltimore/washington area.

 

[bbchien]

Don't get me wrong............ I'm not saying he is unsafe. I'm just concerned about the combo. Low time, switching to a 300hp airplane, and not subscribing to the license to learn school of thought.

It is exactly this sort of pilot that needs....oh never mind. Remember Hayden "jim" Schaefer. Someone has to round out the "bottom of the curve", to all our collective detriment.

 

[N6399A]

Thanks for all the help guys. I think the best course of action is to touch on the negatives, lightly mention the stats, and let nature take it's course. At least then, if the worst happens, I'll know I didn't silently sit by with info I should have shared. I understand that Sam did tell my AI that he planned to get with a CFI for awhile if he got the plane. Ben might be just the guy. He won't give him a high performance endorsement too easily.

 

[bbchien]

Thanks for all the help guys. I think the best course of action is to touch on the negatives, lightly mention the stats, and let nature take it's course. At least then, if the worst happens, I'll know I didn't silently sit by with info I should have shared. I understand that Sam did tell my AI that he planned to get with a CFI for awhile if he got the plane. Ben might be just the guy. He won't give him a high performance endorsement too easily.

Missa, it's not about skills. It's about attitude and judgement. This guy isn't promising....

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Someone should do something. There are only so many Vikings left you know.

 

[JRitt]

From what you have written you have no idea of his piloting skills but you do know that he does the bare minimum to keep his plane in the air. Most people who have already forked out cash on a plane (or any other purchase) cannot easily be talked out of it and if you try as hard as would probably needed (talking to his wife and him) you will probably lose a friend and you possibly could lose one anyway. Probably the best you could do help him find a good CFII to get him checked out with and talk him into getting his IFR (because of course he needs it now that he has a good IFR capable plane. You could also get him a training DVD on his new GPS/NAV/COM.

 

[SCCutler]

Just sorta be impressed at what he's flying, and say how tough it is...

 

[Steve]

I think its very common to have at least one pilot at the local airport that draws attention to his/her relative naivete regarding their own competence and judgement. Sorta like the village idiot of the aviation community.

How do you protect them (and those around them) from themselves? Not sure you can. Imho, those types haven't survived a come-to-jesus experience that shifts their self image enough to change their behavior. Somewhere in their past they've developed their own little paradigm of how things are and how they fit in the scheme of things. They've been successful in other endeavors and naturally assume aviation is no different. Until they understand the maxim "Aviation in and of itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity, or neglect." it is unlikely they will understand your concern, no matter how bluntly or tactfully you try to bring it to their attention.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Perhaps this is a situation in which the Socratic method would work. With the wife present, ask the pilot questions he cannot answer, thereby demonstrating to the wife the limits of the pilot's knowledge and shortcomings of his experience and attitude. You'd have to keep the questions conversational rather than confrontational, and if you mess up your friendship might be on the rocks, but ...

If he's got a year and a half done, he's looking at a BFR. "Sam, how have you been preparing for your BFR?..."