Could It Get Any Closer

New from Ronco, the GyroScalper. It slices! It dices! It never needs to be sharpened!
 
What I'd like to know is why he was parked on a cargo net. That is a HUGE no-no. Lucky it didn't turn into a dynamic rollover right off the vessel.
 
Laurie, why is that? What might have happened? I did note that the net was tied down on the corners (um, wasn't it?)...
 
etsisk said:
Laurie, why is that? What might have happened? I did note that the net was tied down on the corners (um, wasn't it?)...
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My guess is that the back of the right skid was caught in the net and the crewman pulled the net off. The helo had tried to takeoff prior to that so the pilot might have still had some collective (upward thrust) applied which made the helo jump up. Before the pilot realized what was happening the tailrotor hit the deck so the pilot lost anti-torque control.

I guess that's why nets are a no-no.


Edit, I watched it again, and it looks like the crewman was too far back to be releasing the skid from the net. But it might have still been caught and released on its own.
 
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Madre del Dios!!!!!!

Was he on the net for friction? I imagine a wet deck and skids are a bad combo. Although, it is a helipad, so one would think they would have considered that combination. Looks like pilot had her in drive, then the parking brake was released. That's a helluva feat of airmanship in my book. Ground handling, well, not so good.
 
Nav8tor said:
Edit, I watched it again, and it looks like the crewman was too far back to be releasing the skid from the net. But it might have still been caught and released on its own.
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I agree with this. It looked to me like a very simple overcorrection for the forward movement upon attempting to come up to a hover which caused the tail strike. I would guess he was concerned with the net, probably looking straight down, thinking forward cyclic and come up heels first in case the net was hooked, and not aware of his forward speed until that 'Oh my God' moment when he yanked back on the cyclic and bounced the tail rotor off the deck. There was no bounce up, it was a steady forward movement from what I saw. It would also be nice to know where the wind was - that could have been a factor as well.
 
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flyersfan31 said:
Madre del Dios!!!!!!

Was he on the net for friction? I imagine a wet deck and skids are a bad combo. Although, it is a helipad, so one would think they would have considered that combination. Looks like pilot had her in drive, then the parking brake was released. That's a helluva feat of airmanship in my book. Ground handling, well, not so good.
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Wet decks can be slick for sure, but the dangers of being on a cargo net and dynamic rollover far outweigh the danger of a slick deck. A few simple guidelines for landing on wet helidecks, especially on moving vessels:
If the vessel is pitching or rolling more than 5 degrees or heaving more than 10 feet, don't land.
If possible leave the rpm at 100% when on the deck.

I've landed on wet helidecks quite a many times and on motor vessels and rigs under tow. During Alberto I landed on a motor vessel for an evac which was pitching and rolling and heaving all of it's 5 degrees and 10 feet. Wind was 40kts or thereabouts, rain driving, and I never felt in danger of sliding off the deck. I was a bit seasick by the time I got to takeoff and hovering over a heaving deck was quite the experience, but there was no danger of sliding off the side.
 
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Take a very close look at the waves and time it so you can see when the deck pitches up in the air. You can see that each time the deck pitches up the helicopter tips forward. The problem here is the helicopter is sitting at 100% RPM and a wave pitches the deck enough to cause the helicopter to tip and the pilot reacted by adding collective. Since the helicopter was tilted forward at the same time the pilot pulled some collective the helicopter went too far forward. The pilot again reacted with back cyclic causing the tailrotor to hit the deck.
 
 
I don't see why they wouldn't make the tailrotor guards a lot beefier on helos regardless of a minor weight penalty.

Regarding the wind, it looks like most of it is relative wind right off the nose from the forward motion of the ship.
 
bobloblaw310 said:
Take a very close look at the waves and time it so you can see when the deck pitches up in the air. You can see that each time the deck pitches up the helicopter tips forward. The problem here is the helicopter is sitting at 100% RPM and a wave pitches the deck enough to cause the helicopter to tip and the pilot reacted by adding collective. Since the helicopter was tilted forward at the same time the pilot pulled some collective the helicopter went too far forward. The pilot again reacted with back cyclic causing the tailrotor to hit the deck.
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I agree with this. You can see the deck pitch down, then when it comes up the helicopter gets tossed upward.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
I don't see why they wouldn't make the tailrotor guards a lot beefier on helos regardless of a minor weight penalty.

Regarding the wind, it looks like most of it is relative wind right off the nose from the forward motion of the ship.
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Because a while the weight penalty would be small, one heavy to do enough good would have a long arm/CG penalty.

True Winds, 8kts from 11:00(note, there is very little wind on the water, this is a residual swell), Ships motion 8 kts, seas, 6' swell 11:00. Should have had no problems with flight ops in these conditions. I regularly have helos working onboard in worse. It looks like they were recommencing fish spotting ops after a storm. My best guess anyway.

BTW, relative winds on the flight deck would have been near zero as the house was blocking most of it.
 
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bluesky74656 said:
I agree with this. You can see the deck pitch down, then when it comes up the helicopter gets tossed upward.
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The fixed video camera on the top deck makes the motion look much worse than it actually is on the flight deck. That helo isn't getting "tossed" anywhere. I've had flight ops in way worse conditions. That's abbout a 6' swell, it doesn't get much flatter on the open sea.
 
Henning said:
The fixed video camera on the top deck makes the motion look much worse than it actually is on the flight deck. That helo isn't getting "tossed" anywhere. I've had flight ops in way worse conditions. That's abbout a 6' swell, it doesn't get much flatter on the open sea.
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It is very hard to tell the height of the waves just by looking at the video, same thing with the wind speed. What can be clearly seen in the video is the helicopter rocking back and forth due to rough seas. The pitching deck and rough seas are contributing factors to this accident. The deck pitched up hard enough to tilt the helicopter forward forcing the pilot to add collective. He over controlled the helicopter causing the tailrotor to hit the deck. It was a good thing the net was there because when the helicopter slammed back on the deck the skids slid on the net which prevented the helicopter from tipping over and possibly going into the water.
 
Henning said:
Because a while the weight penalty would be small, one heavy to do enough good would have a long arm/CG penalty.

True Winds, 8kts from 11:00(note, there is very little wind on the water, this is a residual swell), Ships motion 8 kts, seas, 6' swell 11:00. Should have had no problems with flight ops in these conditions. I regularly have helos working onboard in worse. It looks like they were recommencing fish spotting ops after a storm. My best guess anyway.

BTW, relative winds on the flight deck would have been near zero as the house was blocking most of it.
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I am still trying to figure out how you know the ship's speed is 8 knots, the height of the swells, and wind speed.
 
It seemed to me the skid was still tied down or caught on the back. Why else would the crew leave, then one guy come back and start working behind the helicopter. I'd guess the pilot tried to depart and noticed the skid was attached. He accidentally left in come collective and had some forward cyclic. When the skid suddenly came free he lurched forward. The fact that the deck also pitched a bit contributed, but I can't see that being the main factor since conditions were so benign.

Or at least that's what I would guess based on my vast helicopter experience (I've logged 0.5 in an R22).

Chris
 
bobloblaw310 said:
I am still trying to figure out how you know the ship's speed is 8 knots, the height of the swells, and wind speed.
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20 years as Captain of such vessels helps. I'm looking at the water for all my information as well as knowing the operational proceedures that we use.
 
bobloblaw310 said:
It is very hard to tell the height of the waves just by looking at the video, same thing with the wind speed. What can be clearly seen in the video is the helicopter rocking back and forth due to rough seas.
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Look at the water using the Beufort Scale, it's very easy to judge the windspeed, there is no breaking or even frothing of the water which will start at about 10 kts wind speed. There is barely a 6" wave on a 6' swell with the only white water being a very small frothing on the ships wake. The ships speed is easily judged by the wake it is leaving (or in this case, barely leaving) Figure by the beam, configuration, and helo in use, this is a stern trawler of about 180-210' with close to 22' of draft when down to the Plimsol mark which would leave her wake at 13 kts which will be he max speed, standing at about a 5-6' breaking cresting wave and you'd see a long white frothy trail behind the boat from the prop wash. He's running between clutch and 1/3 ahead speed which will be between 6 and 8 kts to maintain steerageway, taking the seas 2 points off the bow, which is SOP. Another clue as to sea state is watching the guys walking and standing on deck, that's NOT what you see in rough seas. No, the sea state wasn't the problem here, the helo was hung on something that came loose suddenly. It's also the reason I don't allow helo ops off a cargo net or in fact, any clutter, cables, straps... to be present on the flight ops deck during operations. On boats rigged for heavy weather helo ops, we have a high speed winch in the center of the flight deck that we latch to the cargo hook on the helo and yank them down while the pilot works against the teather. It's very dicey operations and we tend only to use it in extreme emergencies.
 
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bobloblaw310 said:
What can be clearly seen in the video is the helicopter rocking back and forth due to rough seas.
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BTW, the rocking you see is mostly due to gyroscopic effect. He's operating at 100% RPM at this point and is probably into the collective a bit and light on the skids. The ship is actually moving more than the helo. Compare to what the deck is doing against the horizon vs. the helo.
 
Henning said:
BTW, the rocking you see is mostly due to gyroscopic effect. He's operating at 100% RPM at this point and is probably into the collective a bit and light on the skids. The ship is actually moving more than the helo. Compare to what the deck is doing against the horizon vs. the helo.
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But it was the deck coming up under him which set it all in motion. Ask anyone who has jumped on deck in big swells.:goofy:
 
Richard said:
But it was the deck coming up under him which set it all in motion. Ask anyone who has jumped on deck in big swells.:goofy:
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You think I haven't? I've woken up on the ceiling on more than one occassion, I've had the wheelhouse deck leave from under my feet and had the wall come smite me from my flight. I know quite well what big seas are, and my point is, these weren't big seas, the conditions were rather beniegn for open water in latitudes above 40 which they were. What set this in motion was the pilot working against something holding the right rear skid that the deckhand noticed and went back and released. If the pilot hadn't had collective in, the helo wouldn't have gone anywhere. As it was, he had collective, cyclic and some anti torque in countering the holding point when the restricting item released causing the helo to jump forward and rotate right. The pilot then straightend out and tried to arrest forward motion rather than continuing the turn and leaving the deck for the clear. The main failure was one in communications between the deckhand, who noticed the problem and the pilot, to warn him of it so he could shut back down while the situation was cleared. BTW, you never proceed with flight ops with someone on the flight deck out of the field of view of the pilot.
 
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I now have a new mission. Get on a boat in rough seas, and jump.

I've done it standing up in the bed of a pickup while off roading, now I gotta do it on a boat.
 
SkyHog said:
I now have a new mission. Get on a boat in rough seas, and jump.

I've done it standing up in the bed of a pickup while off roading, now I gotta do it on a boat.
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In rough seas, you don't need to jump, the boat will leave you in mid air with no effort on your part.
 
Henning said:
In rough seas, you don't need to jump, the boat will leave you in mid air with no effort on your part.
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Ahh - but if I did jump? Even higher, right? :)
 
Henning said:
Look at the water using the Beufort Scale, it's very easy to judge the windspeed, there is no breaking or even frothing of the water which will start at about 10 kts wind speed. There is barely a 6" wave on a 6' swell with the only white water being a very small frothing on the ships wake. The ships speed is easily judged by the wake it is leaving (or in this case, barely leaving) Figure by the beam, configuration, and helo in use, this is a stern trawler of about 180-210' with close to 22' of draft when down to the Plimsol mark which would leave her wake at 13 kts which will be he max speed, standing at about a 5-6' breaking cresting wave and you'd see a long white frothy trail behind the boat from the prop wash. He's running between clutch and 1/3 ahead speed which will be between 6 and 8 kts to maintain steerageway, taking the seas 2 points off the bow, which is SOP. Another clue as to sea state is watching the guys walking and standing on deck, that's NOT what you see in rough seas. No, the sea state wasn't the problem here, the helo was hung on something that came loose suddenly. It's also the reason I don't allow helo ops off a cargo net or in fact, any clutter, cables, straps... to be present on the flight ops deck during operations. On boats rigged for heavy weather helo ops, we have a high speed winch in the center of the flight deck that we latch to the cargo hook on the helo and yank them down while the pilot works against the teather. It's very dicey operations and we tend only to use it in extreme emergencies.
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WOW Henning! This is a great explanation, but wrong! Look at the video closely and you will see the crewman go to the right side of the helicopter and stop at where the net ends. The skids on the helicopter end about two to three feet from the net, so he wasn't hooked on the net. Although you can clearly see the waves don't look so high they are still high enough to make the deck pitch up and down and make the unsecured helicopter rock back and forth.

I don't claim to know anything about boats, and ships. But I am great at studying video and seeing small details that others miss.
 
bobloblaw310 said:
I am still trying to figure out how you know the ship's speed is 8 knots, the height of the swells, and wind speed.
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I'm with Henning, if you look at the foam from the bow wake along the sides of the ship, you see she's not going much faster than my sailboat does at full gallop. My boat does 6kts, and this looks a little faster.

And yes, although there is a swell, there is very little wind, as even on the small lakes I sail, winds much above 12kts or so begin to produce little breaks on the tops of the waves, and none are seen here.

Lastly, the left guy takes shelter, the right guy takes a knee and gives the pilot the thumbs up. Pilot tried to take off, and does move and pitch forward somewhat, and appears to be straining against something holding the helo back. Left guy scrambles back to release whatever is holding the skids, and the helo leaps forward. Pilot has CBDR situation with the ships superstructure, and overreacts backward, striking the tail rotor. He then smartly smacks the thing down on the net and shuts down.

In this case, I think the net saves the helo guy's bacon, as he had way to much rotation going on when he slammed down, and probably would have either gone overboard or stuck the ships superstructure.
 
bobloblaw310 said:
WOW Henning! This is a great explanation, but wrong! Look at the video closely and you will see the crewman go to the right side of the helicopter and stop at where the net ends. The skids on the helicopter end about two to three feet from the net, so he wasn't hooked on the net. Although you can clearly see the waves don't look so high they are still high enough to make the deck pitch up and down and make the unsecured helicopter rock back and forth.

I don't claim to know anything about boats, and ships. But I am great at studying video and seeing small details that others miss.
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Ok, you're right, the boat bucked the helo into the house, regardless that a deck doesn't buck things forward into the air, but rather leaves from underneath. Even though in this video people walk on the deck with little difficulty, the deck must have launched the helo into the house because of the details you observed in the video though you couldn't work out the wind and sea conditions nor the ships speed. My 20 years at sea and operations at sea, you are correct, have absolutly nothing on your power to observe detail in a video, and there is no way that by pulling at the end of a sewn mesh cargo squatting where you can drop your foot over the edge to gain some purchase to pull against (remember Newtons Laws?) that you could have an effect 4' away. You must be right, I'm a freaking moron who couldn't possibly have a clue as to what actually happens over a video analyst who "doesn't claim to know anything about boats or ships" observing a detail that is blocked by a solid object. You're right, I must be wrong. Excuse me for putting forth any words that would contradict your brilliant powers of observation and analysis.
 
Henning said:
Ok, you're right, the boat bucked the helo into the house, regardless that a deck doesn't buck things forward into the air, but rather leaves from underneath. Even though in this video people walk on the deck with little difficulty, the deck must have launched the helo into the house because of the details you observed in the video though you couldn't work out the wind and sea conditions nor the ships speed. My 20 years at sea and operations at sea, you are correct, have absolutly nothing on your power to observe detail in a video, and there is no way that by pulling at the end of a sewn mesh cargo squatting where you can drop your foot over the edge to gain some purchase to pull against (remember Newtons Laws?) that you could have an effect 4' away. You must be right, I'm a freaking moron who couldn't possibly have a clue as to what actually happens over a video analyst who "doesn't claim to know anything about boats or ships" observing a detail that is blocked by a solid object. You're right, I must be wrong. Excuse me for putting forth any words that would contradict your brilliant powers of observation and analysis.
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No, I am wrong. Bill got it right. The guy on the right releases the straps that are holding the helicopter back. The guy on the left releases a strap, but doesn't release the one on the rear. The guy on the left takes a knee and points to the strap at the rear. The guy on the left goes back and begins to release the helicopter. The problem is the pilot was already trying to lift off even though he was still attached.

So, let me get this straight. You have twenty years as a boat Captain. You have wrecked more than your share of airplanes. You have clipped trees while flying, and I am supposed to take you seriously in this thread. Judging from all the factors you have listed in this thread concerning waves, ship's speed, and such. Using your years of experience, can you tell me from the video what the Captain ate for dinner and when was his last bowel movement?
 
bobloblaw310 said:
No, I am wrong. Bill got it right. The guy on the right releases the straps that are holding the helicopter back. The guy on the left releases a strap, but doesn't release the one on the rear. The guy on the left takes a knee and points to the strap at the rear. The guy on the left goes back and begins to release the helicopter. The problem is the pilot was already trying to lift off even though he was still attached.

So, let me get this straight. You have twenty years as a boat Captain. You have wrecked more than your share of airplanes. You have clipped trees while flying, and I am supposed to take you seriously in this thread. Judging from all the factors you have listed in this thread concerning waves, ship's speed, and such. Using your years of experience, can you tell me from the video what the Captain ate for dinner and when was his last bowel movement?
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I can tell you exactly what he ate, what ever the cook put out in the steam table. As for when he took a dump, watch the video 42 more times and see if you can figure it out. I don't much care what you take seriously, I do what I do, here's my credentials:

1600 License.JPG

Pilot (Small).jpg


Now, what credentials as super video analyst or anything else can you post?

BTW, there's no evidence of a hold down strap on the rt rear that I can see in that video, perhaps you can slueth it out for this blind man.
 
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Henning said:
I can tell you exactly what he ate, what ever the cook put out in the steam table. As for when he took a dump, watch the video 42 more times and see if you can figure it out. I don't much care what you take seriously, I do what I do, here's my credentials:

View attachment 6093

View attachment 6095


Now, what credentials as super video analyst or anything else can you post?

BTW, there's no evidence of a hold down strap on the rt rear that I can see in that video, perhaps you can slueth it out for this blind man.
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My credentials are as follows CFI/CFII/MEI. I don't claim to have wrecked four times, clipped trees, or any other spectacular event. I posted a question for you which was simply this. Of the four accidents you have had are there any NTSB reports that you can post?

As for the strap at the right rear, watch the video when it is in slow motion. You can see the strap in the deckhands hand as he rolls away from the chopper.
 
bobloblaw310 said:
My credentials are as follows CFI/CFII/MEI. I don't claim to have wrecked four times, clipped trees, or any other spectacular event. I posted a question for you which was simply this. Of the four accidents you have had are there any NTSB reports that you can post?

As for the strap at the right rear, watch the video when it is in slow motion. You can see the strap in the deckhands hand as he rolls away from the chopper.
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Good, still coincides with what I said to begin with. The boat didn't buck the helo into the air. As for the other, go to the post, I gave you the clues to do the detective work.
 
Bill Jennings said:
....Left guy scrambles back to release whatever is holding the skids, and the helo leaps forward. ....
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At the end of the video when the left guy goes running back to the ship for cover, you can see something in his hand that looks like a tiedown strap.
 
Henning said:
Good, still coincides with what I said to begin with. The boat didn't buck the helo into the air. As for the other, go to the post, I gave you the clues to do the detective work.
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There is 41 pages of ag accidents between the dates you have provided. Many of those accidents are of the same type of aircraft you provide. It is impossible to determine which is "yours" because the NTSB does not identify the pilots involved. Now you could narrow it down if you provide a location. BTW others I am sure would like to learn from "your" accidents so we can prevent from making the same mistakes.
 
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